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  #41  
Old 04-30-2007, 04:41 PM
Uberwagon Uberwagon is offline
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Default Re: (effew)

Quote, originally posted by effew »
They should use the slogan "Uses hardly any gas, and is worse than a mack truck for emissions!" As a selling point.

So how's the weather in fantasy land this time of year effew?

Sorry, but you're buying an oil company/domestic manufacturer line. The vested interests at stake (oil demand/competitive disadvantages) will go great distances to discredit a threat. In this case, you have been lead to believe the emissions numbers of a Prius are worse than they are (the Mack truck line). That is utter nonsense and ignores the reality and potential of the technology.

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  #42  
Old 04-30-2007, 04:56 PM
JB JB is offline
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Default Re: (Uberwagon)

Quote, originally posted by Uberwagon »

So how's the weather in fantasy land this time of year effew?

Sorry, but you're buying an oil company/domestic manufacturer line. The vested interests at stake (oil demand/competitive disadvantages) will go great distances to discredit a threat. In this case, you have been lead to believe the emissions numbers of a Prius are worse than they are (the Mack truck line). That is utter nonsense and ignores the reality and potential of the technology.

He may have been referring to the devastating environmental effects the batteries have when they're used up.

And I'd hardly call the prius the harbinger of the future automobile. The hybrid is a stop gap and nothing more.

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  #43  
Old 04-30-2007, 05:41 PM
anonms anonms is offline
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Default Re: (JB)

Quote, originally posted by JB »

And I'd hardly call the prius the harbinger of the future automobile. The hybrid is a stop gap and nothing more.

Seriously. Using their spending power, consumers have indicated to automakers that they want more fuel efficient and less polluting automobiles. Hybrids are not the permanent solution; however, even hybrid technology is evolving despite its being an interim alternative, and hybrid technology can have its place alongside a better solution; personally, I'd want a biodiesel/electric hybrid with Li-ion batteries.

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  #44  
Old 04-30-2007, 07:16 PM
Uberwagon Uberwagon is offline
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Default Re: (anonms)

I'm terribly sorry if we're getting off topic about this but... I think hybrids such as Prius are obviously a stopgap. Using ANY carbon-emitting fuel or middle-eastern oil will continue the problems we have today (climate change/regional volatility). Until that's changed, cars like the Prius are just a step -- a very good step but definitely just a step.

The production of the batteries, much like other auto-related production processes, is problematic. There are both short-term energy usage and long-term toxic disposal issues. However, many of these processes and problems are the result of an "immature" technology. That is, the economies of scale to deal with some of the problems haven't yet caught up with the emerging technology. That is changing, fast, and it doesn't negate the positive aspects of hybrid techs: Reducing unnecessary carbon emissions.

Ultimately though, electricly powered vehicles look to be the dominant technology of the forseable future. Hydrogen, like gasoline, is just a stop-gap energy storage medium but it will be used (through fuel cells) to produce clean electricity. Some inside the labs feel that the most efficient vehicles will be strictly plug-in battery powered cars. Regardless, each of these techs create some new problems, but the most pressing one of carbon emissions must be met first.

Interestingly, the next-gen Prius will be a "plug-in" hybrid. It is rumoured to have more electric capacity, should have the potential to run on batteries alone and can be charged at night during off-peak hours, when you are not creating any additional emissions in electric usage (that's another subject!). This will reduce carbon emissions per mile driven drastically and will make the Prius an even bigger step in the right direction.

Apologies to those who I've bored with this update!

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  #45  
Old 04-30-2007, 07:28 PM
JB JB is offline
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Default Re: (Uberwagon)

Quote, originally posted by Uberwagon »
I'm terribly sorry if we're getting off topic about this but... I think hybrids such as Prius are obviously a stopgap. Using ANY carbon-emitting fuel or middle-eastern oil will continue the problems we have today (climate change/regional volatility). Until that's changed, cars like the Prius are just a step -- a very good step but definitely just a step.

The production of the batteries, much like other auto-related production processes, is problematic. There are both short-term energy usage and long-term toxic disposal issues. However, many of these processes and problems are the result of an "immature" technology. That is, the economies of scale to deal with some of the problems haven't yet caught up with the emerging technology. That is changing, fast, and it doesn't negate the positive aspects of hybrid techs: Reducing unnecessary carbon emissions.

Ultimately though, electricly powered vehicles look to be the dominant technology of the forseable future. Hydrogen, like gasoline, is just a stop-gap energy storage medium but it will be used (through fuel cells) to produce clean electricity. Some inside the labs feel that the most efficient vehicles will be strictly plug-in battery powered cars. Regardless, each of these techs create some new problems, but the most pressing one of carbon emissions must be met first.

Interestingly, the next-gen Prius will be a "plug-in" hybrid. It is rumoured to have more electric capacity, should have the potential to run on batteries alone and can be charged at night during off-peak hours, when you are not creating any additional emissions in electric usage (that's another subject!). This will reduce carbon emissions per mile driven drastically and will make the Prius an even bigger step in the right direction.

Apologies to those who I've bored with this update!


Hahaha. Well if people think that you save emissions by plugging in, then they're just as stupid as the people that think that the Prius gets its advertised fuel economy. The problem with all current solutions for fuel economy and emissions problems is that they require some other sort of energy in order to get to it. Plug-ins require (mostly) coal power-plants whose emissions are worse than if you were to buy a regular car; hydrogen requires hydrogen production stations that require electricity; hybrids require toxic batteries that eventually die. Then there's the whole issue of whether global warming is actually as bad as some say it is. Not even the scientists can make up their mind about that one. Hybrids like these are all about looking like you're saving the environment, not actually doing it.

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  #46  
Old 04-30-2007, 07:32 PM
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DoMiNo DoMiNo is offline
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Default Re: (JB)

Well said.

Automobile emissions are such a small part of the equation. Change--that is to say, real change--must also come at a higher level, i.e. the power we use for everything else in our everyday lives. So many people seem to forget about that.

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  #47  
Old 05-01-2007, 02:10 AM
Uberwagon Uberwagon is offline
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Sorry Domino, but that post was not "well said" at all. I'm the Sr. VP and chief platform engineer of a manufacturer working on this issue and it absolutely p*sses me off to hear such patently false misinformation about these issues spread like that.

JB's post (sorry JB) shows, at best, a fundamental ignorance of basic science, electrical industry logistics, the technical basis for battery production and a host of environmental issues that are now well beyond reproach by every single scientist not beholden to the American federal government or an oil company (don't worry, I'm a republican). While that may not go over well with JB (or the moderators), even a tacit level of research would show that what he postured is a laughable level of misinformation about hybrids and, as the thread title says, the Toyota Prius (which incidentally I don't work on).

First, the future plug-ins like the next-gen Prius coming to market in the next few years would not necessarily use an ounce more coal fired energy than is already produced. Did you know that electrical plants operate to make enough energy to accomodate the peak demand of the day, 24/7, yet pump all the excess at other parts of the day into the ground? That means if your car intelligently decides to charge during off peak hours (ie when the lights are off, when you're asleep) it will use no more energy than is already produced and is needlessly pumped into the ground during that time. And with networked packet switching (like the internet), a whole city could charge without adding any additional load to the system. That otherwise wasted energy furthers the mileage of your car, provides more carbon-free miles, saves the consumer gas & money, and - yes - makes guys living in both Dubai AND Detroit tremble (hence, JB's post).

Second, the science is beyond reproach. If you question if climate change is "not that bad" then you are practicing willfull ignorance -- deciding not to see what has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I understand because I did it for years but if you are willing to take the time to actually LEARN the facts of both the methodologies AND the data (unlike your media pundits who aren't) then it's awfully and painfully obvious where it's heading. Any more on this would require another thread so I'll stop there.

Third, as I said, hydrogen is a stop-gap and one that, I believe, may never fully come to fruition. It's the most expensive vaporware ever. At this point, most of scientists and engineers I've been working with say it'll best be a fuel delivered to your home, not stored in the car. Simply put, a battery is becoming a more efficient means of storing vehicular energy (hydrogen is a means of storing latent electrical energy) than a bulky, questionably viable hydrogen tank. You'll hear this solution promoted most by those with a vested interest in a) perpetuating the commodity/supplier/filling station model (usually oil companies and politicians in their debt), or b) those who want to continue the same model we're in for long while more (see also "a"). Yes, that's a cynical view but you're welcome to research it yourself.

Finally, the batteries: No, they aren't "friendly" to produce and they do involve long-term toxic storage problems. But are they better than the current model of burning hydrocarbons without restraint? By any measure of metric we have so far been able to devise, the answer is an unequivocal "YES." The Toyota Prius, by nature of its batteries, contributes to peripheral problems of mining, producing and disposing of batteries. Those aren't easy to deal with, granted. But if you prioritize problems (as in which one will viably kill the human species and how do we best offset that in a pragmatic, economical and marketable fashion as soon as possible?) then the reduction of carbon emissions afforded by lithium ion and other battery technologies is an easy -- and I mean WAY EASY BY A LONGSHOT -- winner.

Please, please, please do some real research before spreading the misinformation about these issues. The Prius and hybrids like it coming to market are not silver bullets by any means. But if you believe the talk show hosts over the scientists and buy into the argument of the oil industry PR exec's (they write the talking points) then you'll never be able to see the facts clearly or think for yourself. Sorry to be harsh folks but that's the real deal.


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  #48  
Old 05-18-2009, 11:31 AM
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2nd generation Prius will be continued as Prius EX (JDM) ...


price 1890000 JPY.
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  #49  
Old 05-18-2009, 11:58 AM
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Really? That's cool, this probably means that the Prius EX could be even cheaper than the Honda Insight right?
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  #50  
Old 05-18-2009, 02:01 PM
ROBonCARS ROBonCARS is offline
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Such a simple idea but very clever at the same time
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