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knicks125
03-29-2005, 04:13 PM
<IMG SRC="http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/sixcms/media.php/76/Coupe_450.jpg" BORDER="0"><p><IMG SRC="http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/sixcms/media.php/76/coupe2_450.jpg" BORDER="0"><br> Schulte / Auto motor und sport<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>source</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Upcoming VW Passat Coupe Challenges Mercedes CLS <p>Date Posted 03-28-2005 <p>MUNICH, Germany  Volkswagen is planning a five-door coupe version of its newly introduced Passat to take on the Mercedes-Benz CLS.<p>The German automaker has spent the last two years trying to figure out how to plug the gap between its new Passat and the Phaeton, as well as to take on Mercedes.<p>It has come up with the Passat Coupe, currently its working title, which could make its worldwide debut at the 2007 Frankfurt International Motor Show.<p>The new model will be derived from existing VW architecture and will be offered in front-drive and all-wheel-drive iterations, with four-cylinder and six-cylinder engines.<p>Instead of copying the Mercedes concept, VW has opted for a clever, more brand-appropriate solution. Insiders say it blends a stunning appearance with a highly practical interior. Among its versatile features is a rear hatch that opens in a variety of ways.<p>No word on pricing, but it is expected to be more affordable than comparable CLS models.<p>What it means to you: You want but can't afford the sexy Mercedes-Benz CLS? The VW Passat Coupe might be an attractive alternative.<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p><B>VW has officially gone crazy, haven't they learned anything from Phaeton, anything above 30k probably won't work too well in this competitve market, as a mainstream automaker. When this comes out, and even it is 10K less than the CLS, it would be another Phaeton diaster.</B><p>I quote myself,<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VW needs to work on their current cars, such as lower the price of jetta and passat, get rid of phaeton, then worry about new cars, one step at a time please</TD></TR></TABLE><br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Santeno at 1:00 PM 4/6/2005</i>

Roadster44
03-29-2005, 04:46 PM
Phaeton was styled like a big Passat...which is certainly not saying much. <br>If VW will do this with right styling, peformandce and gorgeous interior then they will succeed.<br>I'm interested to see how VW will price their new Jetta and Passat in US. Till then judgment reserved. However Jetta and Passats have strong following here in US, and Passats look way way classier now. Jetta is so-so.

erzhik
03-29-2005, 06:51 PM
the old jetta looks a lot better than the new one.. a bit more sporty.. <p>looks like VW really wants to take on MB, and BMW, Audi.. <p>

Charger
03-29-2005, 06:55 PM
I dont like the 4 cylinder engine option. I know they are trying to make people buy the VW instead of the MB but if they want to compete with the CLS I would not buy a 4 cylinder.

nismo
03-29-2005, 10:29 PM
The NEW Jettas already out here in the US... like 2 weeks now. I test drove it too. It drove like a CorollaS to me, but the interior had some fancy touches. The one I test drove was $22k had leather"ette" and hubcaps... sad to say I'd take the CorollaS or a Mazda3 or 6 over it...<p>VW needs to realize they are no luxury brand... no matter how "fancy" it is.

erzhik
03-30-2005, 03:19 AM
agree..They are no luxury, but I really loved their Phaeton... I rented it and drove on german autobahn, and wow..that phaeton is awesome... really big and really powerful... I like phaeton more than S class... but Phaeton was more like a big passat..

erzhik
03-30-2005, 03:21 AM
and the new Jetta comparing to new passat it looks the same... size is the difference... I don't know what's up with that Jetta, but when I went to Detroit Auto Show, it was everywhere. There were like 10 jetta's.

knicks125
03-30-2005, 05:53 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>nismo</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The NEW Jettas already out here in the US... like 2 weeks now. I test drove it too. It drove like a CorollaS to me, but the interior had some fancy touches. The one I test drove was $22k had leather"ette" and hubcaps... sad to say I'd take the CorollaS or a Mazda3 or 6 over it...<p>VW needs to realize they are no luxury brand... no matter how "fancy" it is.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Offtopic, I also test drove the new Jetta, the MSRP was 27K and change...enough said <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>It seems like every midsize sedan is going the coupe route, Passat, Altima, Sonata, etc....Accord already has, Camry has the Solara...

mzoltarp
03-30-2005, 05:59 AM
Solution:<br>1) Price the Jetta at 15-22k<br>2) Price the Passat at 20-30k<br>3) Create a Passat Plus with longer wheelbase and distinctive styling for 35-40k<br>4) Delete major technology and weight from the Phaeton and price it at 40-50k<p>It's not that VW has to be bargain basement in their pricing, but they need to be somewhere near land and not in the thin air of the atmosphere.<p>VW also desperately needs a real pickup, and a viable minivan. Yet what we are hearing from VW is more niche vehicles. Niche vehicles are great if you're prepared to replace them quickly with new sheetmetal when the niche vehicle's novelty wears off. The New Beetle is a case in point. It's been allowed to get long in tooth. A VR6 RSi should have been unleashed in the US 5 years ago.<p>The Passat Coupe will be another glorious failure.

CalinG7
03-30-2005, 01:59 PM
<B><I>No word on pricing, but it is expected to be more affordable than comparable CLS models??</I></B><p>It is?? Wow, what geniuses VW has working for them. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bonk.gif" BORDER="0"> I thought they were going to price it like a Bentley GT, because after all, they're Volkswagen, and they price their vehicles by picking numbers out of a hat, with no relationship to reality. <p>VW concentrated on high-end vehicles like the Phaeton and Toureg to the detriment of their core lineup. Seems like the same line of thinking with this Passat coupt. Yet another very expenssive model getting investment dollars when that money could have been spent on building a factory in the US to make their cars price-competitive, or to develop some serious SUV/Crossover models for the 50% of the American market that seems to be interested in those types of things. But hell no, we're making a CLS fighter. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/all_coholic.gif" BORDER="0">

Roadster44
04-01-2005, 11:22 AM
VW is in process of producing vehicles for all people. And like I said in M5 Touring thread. Its no longer about making few volume cars, its a matter of making all types of different profitable cars to suit different needs. What needs to be looked at, is it worth the resources going on a particular model and how soon can they turn a profit on a new product, every company has its own desired timeframe. <p>Also VW is concentrating on their image as car company that can closely compete with MB. Meaning it has a wide portfolio from A to Z. To compete from A-Class to S-Class. You mentioned that VW needs to concentrate on their lower end models? Well Golf is getting rave reviews and so is the new Polo, new Fox (replacing the Lupo), new Passat...all are terrific looking products and competitively priced. As a matter of fact Polo and Fox are very well equipped as low end models. Golf is a bit expensive, but it still greatly outsells the competition with new Focus being close 2nd. There is also the Golf Plus. Jetta/Bora seems to be a solid product as well. <p>Yes I did just discuss the European market, as for US...well I do agree that VW needs to have plants here to offset currency exchange. And movet Jetta and Beetle to US plants. I think they will take this route because having plants here will free up capacity in their Euro operations so they can expand their portfolio. There is a CR-V, RAV4 like SUV on the way, the roadster, a 2+2 convertible, a coupe and a CLS coupe like sedan. Any word on 7 seater Touareg? A crossover is also in the cards.<p>So I agree with few points you make, but wholly disagree with rest because they are simply inaccurate. <p><br><i>Modified by Roadster44 at 11:29 AM 4/1/2005</i><p><br><i>Modified by Roadster44 at 11:29 AM 4/1/2005</i><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Roadster44 at 6:49 PM 4/1/2005</i>

AM2
04-01-2005, 01:38 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> VW is in process of producing vehicles for all people. And like I said in M5 Touring thread. Its no longer about making few volume cars, its a matter of making all types of different profitable cars to suit different needs. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Cant they do what Toyota is doing?<br>They have their Lexus line of Luxury cars to compete against luxury cars/premium brands... while retaining the more affordable Echos, Corollas, Camrys, Avalons etc.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> VW is in process of producing vehicles for all people. </TD></TR></TABLE><br>All the rich people perhaps?<br>VW is moving closer into Audi's territory.

Roadster44
04-01-2005, 06:18 PM
I don't think that either way is flawed. But what can VW do? Get rid of Audi to get rid of overlap? Next best thing which works is to have VW compete with MB and Audi with BMW because BMW is more about handling and performance as to where VW is relaxed, safe, luxurious motoring. <p>And yes VW is moving upscale, but please remember their Polo, Fox, Golf and Bora products.

Roadster44
04-01-2005, 06:46 PM
About the crossover. Per carconnection.com<p>VW Promises Jetta-Based Crossover <p>"Automotive News reports this week that VW is planning a new Mexican-built crossover vehicle that will join its lineup as a distinct model line. The new all-wheel-drive wagon will show up at Volkswagen dealers in the 2007 model year, and will be based on the Jetta, but will not be marketed as a Jetta Wagon. The vehicle would feature the Jetta's powertrains including VW's new direct-injection 2.0-liter turbo four and a new V-6 also outfitted with direct injection, a new technology that can boost fuel economy. VW will build the new vehicle alongside the New Beetle and the Jetta inPuebla, Mexico, likely by the end of next year." <p>

chaserolls
04-01-2005, 08:28 PM
how is it supposed to compete with the CLS with the CLS is RWD and the passat is FWD? <p>Sure the CLS also comes in 4matic and the passat coupe has optional awd, but come on here, even in AWD the passat coupe will still handle like a FWD car and not be even remotely as sporty handling/driving as the CLS no matter how pretty they make the exterrior/interrior . . . . oh ya and it's a VW!<p>if they must do something like this, why not at least make it an audi? for the brand-conscious buyer

Roadster44
04-02-2005, 10:19 PM
It will probably be a CLS like vehicle, in a sense that it will have low roof and look like a coupe with additional doors. We'll see...I do agree I am a bit suspicious of fwd. PQ35 and PQ45 are the underpinnings. Used in Golf and Passat.

Speedster S
04-02-2005, 10:42 PM
Why is VW trying to move thier brand upscale, isn't that Audi's market? It seems to me that VW is lost.

mzoltarp
04-03-2005, 07:01 AM
VW will continue to stumble with niche vehicles that have a short popularity life instead of producing:<p>a Corolla/Civic fighter (Jetta is positioned wrong)<br>an Accord/Camry fighter (Passat is positioned wrong)<br>an Avalon/Azera fighter<br>a minivan<br>a pickup<br>an Explorer fighter (Toaureg is positioned wrong V6 Toauregs list at 45k at the local dealer when they need to be 30k)<br>a hybrid fuel miser vehicle (no diesels. The Europeans may adore diesels but the Yanks hate them)<p>Audi is their premium brand. Thus the Phaeton was a huge face plant for VW. If VW is going after Mercedes, they are dead in the USA. They need to go after Toyota/Honda because they are the true leaders for engineering top-notch cars at prices that Joe Schmo can afford and JD Power would note that their quality and reliability are usually as good or better than any of the German brands.

Verdegrrl
04-04-2005, 10:27 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VW will continue to stumble with niche vehicles that have a short popularity life instead of producing:<p>a Corolla/Civic fighter (Jetta is positioned wrong)</TD></TR></TABLE><p>The Jetta is more of a premium car than a Civic or Corolla. Interior materials and drive characteristics make it obvious. VW is looking hard at bringing over an Americanized Polo to compete at the bottom of the market. There is really isn't anything that competes against the Jettas, other than maybe base C class Mercedes. It's a premium small car, and people here equate value with size or large engines.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">an Accord/Camry fighter (Passat is positioned wrong)</TD></TR></TABLE><p>The Passat is more of a cross-over between top of the line Maximas and Camry, and the Saabs and Volvos.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">an Avalon/Azera fighter</TD></TR></TABLE> <p>Toyota is not the target in North America. Volvo and Mercedes are. Audi is to chase BMW and the sporty end of the market, while VW handles the less sporting and perhaps more luxury and/or value oriented end of the market. They don't want to duke it out at the bottom.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">an Explorer fighter (Toaureg is positioned wrong V6 Toauregs list at 45k at the local dealer when they need to be 30k)</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Have you checked what what Touaregs really sell for? Granted they should be marketing them as such, but they can't build enough V8 engines to meet demand as it is.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a hybrid fuel miser vehicle (no diesels. The Europeans may adore diesels but the Yanks hate them)</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Not their niche. We're getting some of the super efficient diesels when the sulphur content in fuels falls to acceptable levels. I'd rather have an efficient, cheap to own and maintain diesel, than a complicated hybrid that will be impossible to own past 5 or 6 years, due to servicing complications. That's not good for environment (high vehicle turn-over).<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Audi is their premium brand. Thus the Phaeton was a huge face plant for VW. If VW is going after Mercedes, they are dead in the USA. They need to go after Toyota/Honda because they are the true leaders for engineering top-notch cars at prices that Joe Schmo can afford and JD Power would note that their quality and reliability are usually as good or better than any of the German brands.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Audi is VAG's sporty brand. VW is trying to move upmarket, because that is where money can be made, on smaller economies of scale. No need for huge marketshare. Can they do it? Well, they had better do a better job at branding themselves, because you are just one example of the confusion out there in the general public.

mzoltarp
04-05-2005, 06:03 AM
Thank you Verdegrrl for devoting so much attention to my comments and I appreciate your attempts to "correct" me, but I believe my comments about VW needing to go head-to-head with Toyota/Honda are not only correct but they are shared with many other of the people here. As an owner of an Audi a few years ago, I can tell you that it is NOT a BMW fighter. Audis are all about luxury. As for retreating upmarket to make more money on less volume, Porsche tried that and very nearly put itself out of business. The Boxster was a desperate attempt to go downmarket, increase market share and increase profits and it worked. The Cayenne is also all about market share. <p>Let's take your contention that the Jetta is not a Corolla/Civic fighter and that "There isn't really anything that competes against the Jettas, other than maybe base C class Mercedes." If I read your comments correctly, the Jetta competes only with a small cut of the C class sales picture (i.e. the base model). If I accept your assessment of VW's placement of the Jetta then the Jetta is positioned even more moronically than I thought. Mercedes does not sell many base C models, most are tarted up.<p>The Polo will not sell here unless it is sub $15,000 in full GTi battle form.<p>The Passat is priced like a crossover to the Saabs (low sales volume) and Volvos (ok sales but not huge). In Europe, the Passat is a mainstream sedan and the mainstream sedans here that are most like it are the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, and Hyundai Sonata. THOSE are the models most likely to be cross shopped NOT Saabs (because sales are dead) or Volvos. <p>I agree that the way you prefaced your responses to my comments that you are in tune with what VW thinks it can achieve in the USA all while being a low cost brand to the 3rd world and China.<p>The Phaeton was a face plant. The Toaureg is not selling quite as well as it should, and my suggestions would not only increase market share, it would increase profits.<p>Thank you for a spirited debate. I trust you will take them in that spirit (ie focused on issues not persons).

Santeno
04-06-2005, 09:18 AM
I moved this to the spy pics thread because now Autobild has joind in on this news and provided renderings and an article. here you go:<p><IMG SRC="http://bilder.autobild.de/bilder/1/67737.jpg" BORDER="0"><p><IMG SRC="http://bilder.autobild.de/bilder/1/67736.jpg" BORDER="0"><p>Here's a link to the article (in german):<p><A HREF="http://www.autobild.de/aktuell/neuheiten/artikel.php?artikel_id=8464&A_SESS=7ecbd5efb4197e25d8b82c086f06a679" TARGET="_blank">http://www.autobild.de/aktuell...6a679</A>

Charger
04-06-2005, 12:33 PM
Is this supposed to be the CLS fighter?

knicks125
04-06-2005, 12:37 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Charger</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is this supposed to be the CLS fighter?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Still is...<p>at least in the plans...<p>I am not sure how they can acheive it, maybe in the price dept.

Santeno
04-06-2005, 12:51 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Charger</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is this supposed to be the CLS fighter?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>As stated in the article in the previous page:<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...Volkswagen is planning a five-door coupe version of its newly introduced Passat to take on the Mercedes-Benz CLS...</TD></TR></TABLE><p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">

Charger
04-06-2005, 12:57 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Santeno</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As stated in the article in the previous page:<p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><br>Ooops, my bad <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bangin.gif" BORDER="0">

AM2
04-06-2005, 01:22 PM
Weren't old Passats hatchbacks except for the 1st gen Passat/Dasher 4-door which looked like a hatchback but had a trunk?<p>Interesting concept... another saloon/coupe hybrid, now thats original this one is a hatchback, but with the limited transvere engines VW can put in the Passat's engine bay its no match for the CLS.<br>The base CLS has a 3.5 liter V6(not sold in North America), a 5-liter V8 and a supercharged 5.4 liter V8.<p>

mzoltarp
04-06-2005, 03:56 PM
One wonders why VW never developed a VR8. That could have been the ticket.

PBH
04-07-2005, 08:16 AM
too close to the W8 maybe? VW over in the UK are slightly more expensive than rivals, but the interiors are high quality, and you get the extra money you outlay back in money saved from low depreciation, also they tend to have a lot of safety/comfort equipment as standard, and VW diesels are some of the best availible, making them very competitive. Now I kno this doesn't help all you american people, but it helps if you look through VW's eyes from a European market point of view. I would imagine that VW are probably planning a US factory to sort out the pricing situation because it does seem rather ridiculous, and with all these extra cars on the way they have to place the extra capacity somewhere! so hopefully things will be looking up soon.<p>The passat coupe will probably compete with the Peugeot 407 coupe in Europe, I would say although styled in similar fashion to the CLS, it will probably be mainly aiming to steal sales of compact executives such as the 3 series, C etc...

Santeno
04-07-2005, 09:17 AM
Can't VW allocate production to Puebla and just import vehicles from there to the rest of NAFTA? They did end production of the Original Beetle there last fall. I would think that that alone would free up a substantial amount of factory space. Does anyone know what is going on at puebla and what is being built there now (and in the near future)?

mzoltarp
04-08-2005, 05:19 AM
Regarding Puebla, we know that the New Beetle is in production there. I believe I read in Autoweek that all Jetta/Bora production is based there given that the Bora is a "bore-uh" to Europe. They also reported that the Beduin will be made there. Given that the Passat is really a Super Jetta in this iteration, it follows that the Passat coupe--being a low production niche car--could be built there provided that production capacity exists. I'd build the Passat there and try to bring down the price at the dealer, but VW hasn't called me lately for advice. :)

Roadster44
04-08-2005, 05:20 AM
How well equipped is the Pueblo plant? Can it handle production of new models?

mzoltarp
04-08-2005, 05:26 AM
The Puebla plant is modern. The New Beetle I owned had excellent fit and finish. My question is whether or not the plant is large enough to handle more than it already does. Besides, there's always China. Maybe send the Phaeton production there and sell it here for $15k (joke).

sc43018
04-09-2005, 08:55 PM
I wasnt aware that the New Beetle was built in Puebla, in Car & Driver they only mentioned the ending of the Old Beetle that was built there... it certainly opens up options for VW doesnt it

Santeno
04-11-2005, 08:29 AM
yeah they built both the original and the new beetle (as well as the golf and jetta) at the puebla factory.

Verdegrrl
04-11-2005, 11:08 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thank you Verdegrrl for devoting so much attention to my comments and I appreciate your attempts to "correct" me, but I believe my comments about VW needing to go head-to-head with Toyota/Honda are not only correct but they are shared with many other of the people here.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>That is the task of VW to correct. They can't compete with Toyota and Honda and retain the German character and brand image they have built thus far. Can they create that image? I think they should hire away BMW's ad agency, since they excel at creating an image and spin control.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As an owner of an Audi a few years ago, I can tell you that it is NOT a BMW fighter. Audis are all about luxury.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>What model and year Audi? Yes, in the past Audi has been more of a middle ground between the unsporty Mercedes and the very sporty BMW. Since the former head of BMW, Bernd Pischetsrieder has come on board, he's clearly indicated that Audi must get more sporty and VW must be perceived as a budget luxury car. The Audi B7 A4 shows this thinking by changes to the suspension and moving the engine rearward as far as the present design allows. More will come. <p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As for retreating upmarket to make more money on less volume, Porsche tried that and very nearly put itself out of business. The Boxster was a desperate attempt to go downmarket, increase market share and increase profits and it worked. The Cayenne is also all about market share.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>The margins on a Cayenne or Boxster are far greater than any Jetta. There is a sweet spot in demographics and most car makers are trying to find the right fit for them. What is less clear is how Burnt Fishtrousers;-) plans to change the North American perception of VW. He can't go too high too fast. He's got to hit a chord. <p>Having sold thousands of VWs myself, I can tell you the average Jetta or Golf buyer sees themselves as a counter-culture rebel who enjoys driving and tactile feedback. The Passat folks tend to be a bit more intellectual. In both cases though, they are tech savvy and they usually grind the dealer for the last penny, which means dealers don't make money in the sales dept and they can't keep their best people (the service dept is the dealership money maker). That makes it hard to sell upscale cars. <br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Let's take your contention that the Jetta is not a Corolla/Civic fighter and that "There isn't really anything that competes against the Jettas, other than maybe base C class Mercedes." If I read your comments correctly, the Jetta competes only with a small cut of the C class sales picture (i.e. the base model). If I accept your assessment of VW's placement of the Jetta then the Jetta is positioned even more moronically than I thought. Mercedes does not sell many base C models, most are tarted up.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Well, I should probably add the Volvo V and S50. Given the car they built, and the price point it must hit, how would you position the Jetta? What would you do to make it sell in volume - realize I mean volume by VW standards, which would be 100,000 to 150,000 a year?<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Polo will not sell here unless it is sub $15,000 in full GTi battle form.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Target price for a fully equipped GTi is likely to be around $18K.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Passat is priced like a crossover to the Saabs (low sales volume) and Volvos (ok sales but not huge). In Europe, the Passat is a mainstream sedan and the mainstream sedans here that are most like it are the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, and Hyundai Sonata. THOSE are the models most likely to be cross shopped NOT Saabs (because sales are dead) or Volvos.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I guess that depends on location. In Southern California, some people do cross shop the Passat against the Japanese, but most folks who make it to a VW dealer are looking alternatives to the conventional. They are looking for refinements in driving enjoyment and clever touches - real or imagined. The Japanese car buyer tends to be much more conservative. How VW can bridge the gulf between the counter-culture rebels and the conventional buyers who buy Japanese, is a ticklish problem. VW has built a strong image as the choice for strong minded individuals who enjoy taking a path less traveled. How to not destroy that image and yet reach out to the conservatives with herd instincts?<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Phaeton was a face plant. The Toaureg is not selling quite as well as it should, and my suggestions would not only increase market share, it would increase profits.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Absolutely. The Phaeton was an ego trip for Piech. Since the price adjustments on the Touareg, they seem to be selling very well. In fact the V8s (shared with the Phaeton, A8, S4 and A6) can sometimes be in short supply while conversely sales of fuel efficient cars has risen has hurt sales considerably. The V6 which is meant to be the bread and butter, is sucking wind. Sales of other large heavy SUVs seem to be slowing. I've seen this happen a few times. Best case scenario is for VW to push the diesels.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thank you for a spirited debate. I trust you will take them in that spirit (ie focused on issues not persons).</TD></TR></TABLE><p>No offense taken! :) Thank you for bringing some very real and complex issues to the table. Agreed, this isn't personal.

mzoltarp
04-12-2005, 05:50 AM
The reality is that Americans do not see VW in the same realm as BMW/Mercedes. I could argue that Americans also do not see VW as being truly competitive with Honda or Toyota i.e. Honda and Toyota give you more car and a more reliable car for less money. Here VW will always be synonymous with the Beetle. Americans walk into a VW dealer and see the price and faint from sticker shock on the Jetta. Moreover, the sweet spot price point of 50k may increase profit but if I can choose between VW, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, or Infiniti, VW loses immediately because it has no luxocar clout. The Polo would be a disasterous move because it would be compared against other small hatches on the way and it would be extravagantly overpriced in relation. The Kia Spectra 5 shows that the Koreans can throw out a hot hatchback and you know that they will only more aggressive as they make improvements. What VW really needs more than becoming a wannabe BMW is to do some fresh thinking. Right now they are molding themselves in someone else's image and are not competitive really with anyone.<p>They need a "new" Beetle i.e. a quirky but endearing small car that is cheap to buy, cheap to keep and which exudes a timeless sense of style or antistyle as was the case with the Beetle/Type 1. It needs to be a configurable car so that owners can change it from mild to wild. It should not be a retro-Beetle design.<p>A second version of this vehicle should be the spiritual successor to the Thing i.e. a 4 door SUVish bread and butter runabout with removable seats for the beach.<p>A third version of this platform should be a box on wheels (Nissan Cube) with portholes in the roof and with great configurability like a Honda Element.<p>All three should be available with base gasoline and delux hybrid drive trains and should start at 15k topping out at 21-22k.<p>VW used to be highly desired for their honesty as vehicles and that has been muddied. It's as if VW is ashamed of what they were and have no idea of how to become what others are. This is also a case of split personality. What the Europeans think of VW is not shared by the Americans and if VW does not watch it, they will be out of the market like Peugeot and Renault.<p>I predict strong sales for the Jetta and Passat as VW fans trade up to new sheetmetal and then sales will dive.

Verdegrrl
04-12-2005, 11:55 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The reality is that Americans do not see VW in the same realm as BMW/Mercedes. I could argue that Americans also do not see VW as being truly competitive with Honda or Toyota i.e. Honda and Toyota give you more car and a more reliable car for less money. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Agreed. However, VW does not want to compete against Toyota or Honda. They would rather slot in under a premium European brand, even if the budget version of such. People tend to pidgeon hole them into competing against the budget brands, but that isn't the cars or the culture of the brand.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here VW will always be synonymous with the Beetle. Americans walk into a VW dealer and see the price and faint from sticker shock on the Jetta. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>I saw that when the New Beetle launched, but to be honest, those folks weren't buying anything except old memories of Woodstock, etc. Those folks weren't even potential conquests for anything else in the VW brand - having driven up in a Lexus or SUV. Most contemparary VW drivers are born long after the Beetle stopped coming here ('79).<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Polo would be a disasterous move because it would be compared against other small hatches on the way and it would be extravagantly overpriced in relation. The Kia Spectra 5 shows that the Koreans can throw out a hot hatchback and you know that they will only more aggressive as they make improvements.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I think a stonking GTi Polo for $18K isn't bad, given a Civic Si starts at $19K. More basic versions would probably dip under $15K. That's fair, given you get that German car feel - no matter where they build it.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">They need a "new" Beetle i.e. a quirky but endearing small car that is cheap to buy, cheap to keep and which exudes a timeless sense of style or antistyle as was the case with the Beetle/Type 1. It needs to be a configurable car so that owners can change it from mild to wild. It should not be a retro-Beetle design.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>It's been tried. Toyota is having the great success with the Scion line, but that car is terribly dull to drive. It's more the idea of being able to tack stuff on your car to make it personalized than about actually driving. That runs counter to German thinking and most VW drivers. VW did it with the VW Fox, which sold in surprising numbers. It was so basic that even a/c was an option. You know who bought the cars? Mostly people with small budgest or bad credit who couldn't afford anything else. Great reliable car because there wasn't anything to break, but most owners didn't have the means to upgrade any time soon. It was a dead end for the brand. The Koreans own that market now, and with the cheap labour in their part of the world, we'd have to accept VWs built in China to compete on price. The US government isn't crazy about that, even if consumers were OK with it. So they need a "kid" brand. That would probably mean the Polo.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A second version of this vehicle should be the spiritual successor to the Thing i.e. a 4 door SUVish bread and butter runabout with removable seats for the beach.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>How many of these do you think they'd sell? Small niche.<p> <IMG SRC="http://www.autopress.be/images/VW%20Concept%20T.jpg" BORDER="0"> <p>The Bedoiun is coming. Pricing to start in the low $20K range, and top out around $30K. That's squarely in Rav4 and CRV territory. Now remember that VW buyers aren't normally Toyota buyers and vice versa. They each have their niche.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A third version of this platform should be a box on wheels (Nissan Cube) with portholes in the roof and with great configurability like a Honda Element.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>How is that unique? Why do it? Just because it's a fad in Japan? How is that German?<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All three should be available with base gasoline and delux hybrid drive trains and should start at 15k topping out at 21-22k.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Gas and diesel. That's European. VW isn't sticking with the old image. They can't afford to. They don't make cars like that for the 1st world market and they can't make them for that price. <p>Hybrid drivetrains will prove hard to maintain (finding tech with the knowledge and tools to work on them) over the long term, and since most people who buy VW admire longivity (perceived or real), this probably won't go over so well in the long term. If they go there, they'll probably combine diesel and some other form of energy storage. <p><A HREF="http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-vw-1-liter-car.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.seriouswheels.com/t...r.htm</A> <p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VW used to be highly desired for their honesty as vehicles and that has been muddied. It's as if VW is ashamed of what they were and have no idea of how to become what others are. This is also a case of split personality. What the Europeans think of VW is not shared by the Americans and if VW does not watch it, they will be out of the market like Peugeot and Renault.</TD></TR></TABLE><p><br>You bring some interesting things to light. It's actually rather sad to see, as you're obviously a well informed car enthusiast, and yet the modern VW hasn't reached you. It really points out what a poor job VWoA has done at keeping the North American public current with the overal image of the company. Their image of a slightly upscale but reasonabley priced brand (just shy of Mercedes or BMW or Audi), has not been cultivated here. That move did not happen overnight. VWoA is now facing a huge leap im image, that it can't pull off with the resources at hand. The product no longer fits the old outdated image Americans have of VW, and yet the old impression is all they have. I don't think VW is so ambitious as to plan to compete on the scale of Toyota or Honda here for now. They can't, given the dealer network and shortage of qualified staff. <p>Go to a VW service lounge on a Saturday morning for a few weeks in a row. Talk to the folks there. They are vastly different than most Honda or Toyota drivers and proud of that. A VW buyer likes the fact the car doesn't appeal to the mass market as much as some other brands. I've had people buy a Jetta, with a friend tagging along who emphatically stated they were buying a Honda. When I asked what they liked about the Honda, their reply was that they had always liked it, and all their friends owned one. Total opposite of a VW driver! That is what drives the brand to this day. I'm concerned that the new Jetta is a bit too "me too" in appearance, even if the materials and driving experience are far more entertaining than the more prosaic offers out there.

mzoltarp
04-12-2005, 04:07 PM
VW has one of the worst customer satisfaction ratings with respect to its service department of any brand and that comes from JD Power and as for my VW ownership, I have owned or currently own:<p>2 Type 1 beetles<br>2 Corrados<br>2 Jettas GLI and VR6<br>2 GTis Rabbit and Golf<br>New Beetle<p>Long story short. I'm well versed on VWs and am a huge fan, but you have a powerful need to be right. Enjoy the mantle.

Verdegrrl
04-12-2005, 06:19 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VW has one of the worst customer satisfaction ratings with respect to its service department of any brand and that comes from JD Power and as for my VW ownership, I have owned or currently own:<p>2 Type 1 beetles<br>2 Corrados<br>2 Jettas GLI and VR6<br>2 GTis Rabbit and Golf<br>New Beetle<p>Long story short. I'm well versed on VWs and am a huge fan</TD></TR></TABLE><p>So you know the spectrum of VW buyers and how they occupy a unique niche! Don't you think the situation (cars, customer sophistication, German economy and home market) has changed from the days of the Beetle or even the MK III cars? IMHO VWoA has failed to connect with people as time has progressed. If they've missed you, how will they connect on the larger scale?<p>Yes, the service dept is truely horrible all too often. Most of the service writers I know are looking for alternative careers, torn between love of the brand and hating to toe the company line and avoid litigation. The whole internal system is demoralized.<p>VW needs to reconnect with the public. I don't think focusing only on cheap little cars will benefit the company as a whole over the long term. The profits aren't there. The brand loyalty isn't there. Many people buy those cars because they have to, not because they want to. My brother-in-law bought his Civic because he needed a new car and this seemed like the way to lose the least amount of money while doing so. There was and is no passion or loyalty in his choice. It's an appliance. Now that he's ready to move up, he feels no greater or less loyalty to Honda than any other brand. I don't know that VW has any business in that market. Given your history, you know that too.<p>My work requires I interact with Germans a great deal and my views of their practices aren't so popular with them sometimes. You make valid points, but sometimes I can see that they have some reason for doing things the way they are done. The disconnect is at VWoA and the ad agency. They don't communicate their needs to Germany, and Germany puts their own filter on things. <p>In the end they make small cheap cars for other markets, but they aren't up our expectations here, so we don't get them. It doesn't make sense to duplicate efforts for just this market unless the margins are promising (even the Scions are reskinned Toyota Echos). <p>Is this acceptable from a VW?<br><A HREF="http://www.automotive.com/2005/43/scion/xb/reviews/road-test/" TARGET="_blank">http://www.automotive.com/2005...test/</A> <p>Just curious - did you buy your VWs new or used?<p>I had an almost new Audi 90 and a gently used MK II GLi. Audi Sportback next. Both decent fun cars, although no less work to own than my Alfas. In the end it was better to seperate work and pleasure <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0"><br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Verdegrrl at 8:33 PM 4/12/2005</i>

PlatForm
04-12-2005, 10:45 PM
VW is totally lost. How they gonna rival with Mercedes Benz CLS??? VW Passet Coupe look ugly and pretty bad.. i prefer Audi than VW.. the design getting weird and they must learn BMW business strategy.

mzoltarp
04-13-2005, 06:22 AM
I never buy used cars. I don't want someone else's nightmare. Four years ago when I wanted a sedan, I went to the local VW/Hyundai dealer to buy a Passat. The V6 Passat was 34k on the show room floor was a Hyundai XG300 for 24k. I drove both, both were more soft riding than I would like, but the Hyundai was far smoother. It looked like an expensive car whereas the Passat was seeming bland.<p>VW is becoming a niche builder in the USA only BECAUSE they have no idea of how to target American tastes.<p>Your comment about "cheap little cars" is a perjorative. My point is that VW needs to be mainstream and by creating affordable and trendy cars on an entry level chassis, they would be able to tap into a larger pool of buyers.<p>Having owned Volkswagens, I say that VW ABSOLUTELY MUST go into mainstream markets and compete with the leaders Honda and Toyota. Honda, and to a lesser extent, Toyota have rabid followers in the high spending import tuner crowd. <p>Volkswagen is not serious about the US market in the least. They have always thought that whatever they throw out in Germany should be a big hit here. Just because the Germans will put up with new sheet metal only every 8 years does not mean that Americans will.<p>The Golf is dowdy and it will stagger on without any changes for years and years. <p>The recipe for VW's success is:<p>Vehicles that Americans want (broad-appeal sedans, minivan, pickup, SUVs, hybrids, fun cars at entry level)<p>Styling, styling, styling<p>Quick styling updates where the car is substantially refreshed every 3 years<p>Prices that are penny for penny the same as the market benchmarks. The Jetta is their Corolla both in size and copy cat styling. The Passat is their Camry.<p>Your disdain for Scion is actually pretty funny given that Scion has been a home run for Toyota. Scions are AFFORDABLE but because they are Toyotas they are not cheap.<p>VW does not have the clout to be a more affordable BMW or Mercedes alternative. Signpost up ahead: The Japanese Are Already There. The Acura TSX and TL are good BMW alternatives as is the Infiniti G35 and the upcoming Lexus IS350. The Passat does not have the chops to go head to head with any of these cars which are in the niche that you think the Passat is in. <p>The Passat is their Camry and it is horrifically overpriced and will not have commensurate quality. Heck when Hyundai eclipses your quality, you know you have lost ground.<p>Your comments in this thread seem to be more Eurocentric where VW may have a shot at being a near-do-well BMW. That plan will not work here.

knicks125
04-13-2005, 06:51 AM
well said...VW needs to understand the market they say it's most imprtant to them...well, they used to understand it, but now they are out of that circle again <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emsad.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>On a side note, I don't like used cars either, the only one I had was in college, well, with the parking job some students pulled, perhaps it was the only type everyone should've gotten...

Santeno
04-13-2005, 11:43 AM
Automotive News is reporting the possibility of this models production as well:<p><A HREF="http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=12057" TARGET="_blank">http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=12057</A>

Verdegrrl
04-13-2005, 12:41 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I never buy used cars. I don't want someone else's nightmare. Four years ago when I wanted a sedan, I went to the local VW/Hyundai dealer to buy a Passat. The V6 Passat was 34k on the show room floor was a Hyundai XG300 for 24k. I drove both, both were more soft riding than I would like, but the Hyundai was far smoother. It looked like an expensive car whereas the Passat was seeming bland.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>One person's bland might be another person's minimalist <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0"> I wonder how a 4 year olf XG300 would drive compared to the Passat? I can't say, because I've never taken an XG in trade, so just musing out loud.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VW is becoming a niche builder in the USA only BECAUSE they have no idea of how to target American tastes.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>You're right. There is that disconnect I mentioned before.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Having owned Volkswagens, I say that VW ABSOLUTELY MUST go into mainstream markets and compete with the leaders Honda and Toyota. Honda, and to a lesser extent, Toyota have rabid followers in the high spending import tuner crowd. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Having freelanced for some German car tuners, they have a very strong following (a google search for "Volkswagen tuners" and then "Toyota tuners" yeilds 92,300 hits for VW and 77,000 for Toyota). Granted, it would be nice to get out of the cheaper end of the market. Everybody is cutting everbody's throat in hopes of outlasting the next guy, and it's not productive.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The recipe for VW's success is:<p>Styling, styling, styling<p>Quick styling updates where the car is substantially refreshed every 3 years</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Does Mercedes, BMW or Audi do this? I'm not disagreeing, but it does devalue the brand image rather more quickly, and premium cars usually make conservative evolutionary changes. The thing is that VW needs to get an image first, and then hone it. Is the Coupe the way to go? Well, if they price it right, it could be. Not a Mercedes fighter, but maybe a budget Mercedes for those who can't reach that far financially.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Prices that are penny for penny the same as the market benchmarks. The Jetta is their Corolla both in size and copy cat styling. The Passat is their Camry.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I have to keep telling you, Toyota isn't the target. Maybe it is to you. Maybe I should have started by asking what qualities in a car are important to you? Why were you drawn to the VW brand in the first place? <p>I've learned that like most things, in the car world, product is secondary to marketing. When selling cars you can sell almost anything to anyone and always tell the truth - but the words you choose, the timing, and how you put them, will determine if you make the deal. VW needs to wise up and get the marketing spin on.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your disdain for Scion is actually pretty funny given that Scion has been a home run for Toyota. Scions are AFFORDABLE but because they are Toyotas they are not cheap.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>But will those Scion buyers turn into future Toyota buyers? It's a gamble. Once the novelty of buying accessories wears off, will those Echo underpinnings seduce long term buyers? Toyota certainly isn't making any money selling Scions. It's the Barbie doll of cars - allowing you to accessorize with factory blessing - for a price of course - and that is what makes the money for the brand. Honestly, can you see any German brand beyond MINI doing that? Not many New Beetle customers turned into conquest sales for the rest of the VW line and they offered accessories too. You and I know how that turned out. People chase the new fads, good or not. Marketing over substance is king.<p> <A HREF="http://www.toyoland.com/scion/scion-2005.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.toyoland.com/scion/scion-2005.html</A> <p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VW does not have the clout to be a more affordable BMW or Mercedes alternative. Signpost up ahead: The Japanese Are Already There. The Acura TSX and TL are good BMW alternatives as is the Infiniti G35 and the upcoming Lexus IS350. The Passat does not have the chops to go head to head with any of these cars which are in the niche that you think the Passat is in.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Agreed I don't think VW is in that league. I think of them as the Volvo, Mazda, Subaru kind of company in ideal terms. Cars for people just outside the mainstream. There is a large market for that, if not as large as mainstream players like Toyota and Honda. The problem is that when you have to appeal to such a large market, you water things down. I just don't think the banality of Toyota or Honda design (reliable as it may be) is VW's heritiage or it's future - here anyway.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Passat is their Camry and it is horrifically overpriced and will not have commensurate quality. Heck when Hyundai eclipses your quality, you know you have lost ground.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Is that real quality, or perceived quality? I only say that because people go into a purchase with certain expectations. If they don't expect as much from a Hyundai, and the car exceeds those expecations, of course they'll be happy. There is the marketing spin again <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0"> I've owned a number of Toyotas. Some were good and some were terrible. <p>A Passat sedan ranges in base price from $22k to $30K. A Camry $18K to $26K. An Accord is $16K to $29K. A Nissan Maxima is $27K to $30K. <p>________________________<p>A 4 cylinder Camry LE manual with airbags, stability system, moonroof, and stereo, comes out to $22K and change. A Passat GL comes with everything except CD changer, stability program, and heavy duty rubber floor mats (regular mats are standard).<p> The Passat offers a 5yr/60K basic warranty comapred to the 3/36 of the Camry. Drivetrain is the same for both.<p>Rust is 5 yrs Toyota, 12 yrs VW. <p>You get 170hp and 166ft lbs of torque @1950 rpms in the VW vs 160hp and 163ft lbs @ 4000rpms in the Camry.<p>A power driver's seat is standard in the Camry, but not available in the base Passat. However, both driver and passenger seat are adjustable for height in the VW.<p>Rear heat ducts in the Passat, but not in the Camry.<p>Both front windows in the Passat are one touch, while the Camry has one.<p>Heated mirrors are standard in the Passat, but not availalbe in the Camry.<p>The Passat steering wheel is adjustable for both reach and rake. Camry has rake adjustment only.<p>Audi controls are standard on the wheel of the Camry, and not on the Passat.<p>Seatback pockets standard on Passat, not on Camry.<p>Power outlets in the rear and trunk are standard in the Passat, but not Camry.<p>Overhead console comes standard in the Camry and is not available in the Passat.<p>Camry gets front but no rear reading lights. Passat has both.<p>Floor mats are standard on VWs, but not on the Camry.<p>The Passat gets a trip computer, while Camry does not.<p>Both cars get front disc brakes, but the Camry gets drum rear brakes.<p>Traction control is standard in the Passat, while an option in the Camry.<p>Head and side airbags are optional in the Camry, while standard in the Passat.<p>Security engine immobilizer is standard in the VW, and not available in the Camry.<p>Both cars get an in-dash CD player, but the Passat has an option for a 6 changer in the trunk.<p>6 speakers Camry - 8 speakers Passat.<p>_____________<p>The Camry has a tighter turning circle at 35 vs 37 ft for the Passat.<p>The Camry gets 2mpg better economy than the Passat in city and highway driving.<p>The Camry drinks regular gas, while the turbo in the Passat needs premium.<p>Interior capacities are with an inch or so of one another, although the Passat is slightly smaller by most dimensions.<p>________________________<p>All this data comes from edmunds, so I expect an error here or there, but as you can see, the Passat makes a pretty compelling argument when it comes to value. Certainly no more bland than an Accord or Camry when it comes to appearance. Marketing is holding them back, not the basic product (although that could use some regularly updated sex appeal too).

mzoltarp
04-14-2005, 06:12 AM
You're so funny. I love it when you speak as if you are the keeper of all knowledge VW. Your position is 100% opinion as is mine and yours in most decidedly not more valid. Both of us are conjecturing based on our interpretation of the facts. <p>However, my Hyundai drives wonderfully after 4 years. Never even a hint of a problem. I would buy another one without hesitation. I cannot say the same for VW.<p>EVERY VW I've ever had has been a dealer queen. They had to go to the dealer for a myriad of annoying little defects and in some cases MAJOR malfunctions. There was the Corrado that self-destructed its sunroof the minute it got out of waranty. There was the other Corrado that had to have it's heater core replaced so that scalding hot water would not come gushing into the interior and thank God it began with a dribble. There was the New Beetle that had the passenger window go crashing down because the cheap crappy window regulator failed. Every VW I have owned or currently own requires the door handles to be tightened so that they do not fall off. VW quality is pretty horrid but given that you want them to mirror Mercedes then I guess according to JD Power their quality is equally abismal. <p>Hyundai is just now getting a "perceived" quality aura but it was actual quality that got them the crown. There is no excuse for bad quality at any price point.<p>I bought VWs because they were driver's cars and not because I was a wannabe Subaru freak with a taste for German. Nor was I a Volvo fan afraid of being too IKEA. Nor was I a Mazda fan unwilling to commit. I bought my VWs because they were mainstream with a twist.<p>As for the import tuner people, Honda/Acura is the one to beat. The Subie WRX and Mitsu Evo have rabid followers too. But again, VW has let this segment get by them. VW has the capacity to target the WRX with a Jetta R32, but some dimwit inside VW must think that Americans are fiending for Golfs so they build a Golf R32 in a trickle when they easily could have sold double or triple the amount. A Jetta R32 would have been a huge hit and ironically would have created an upmarket halo for their most popular vehicle in the US.<p>You mention "banality of design" with Honda and Toyota and I agree, but make no mistake they have bullet-proof quality. Fun cars horrid quality do not sell. Fun cars with high quality do. You are now starting to catch on to what I am saying. The Passat needs to target the Accord and Camry penny for penny, in quality, and provide STYLING. Rapid styling changes worked miracles for the US auto industry in the 60's. As someone who professes to know about marketing, you should be aware of this. People hold onto their cars longer these days because the style doesn't change so there is no incentive to buy. If the style changed every 3 years with major change and not just a "freshening" sales would likely increase because Americans love the newest bestest coolest thing and will continue to be that way. The Germans are polar opposite in philosophy. Research shows that people tire of their cars around year 3. Thus if you place your cars at an advantageous price point and create incentive to trade up, sales increase. Studies also show that 2-3 year old lease returns of vehicles with desirability (Lexus, BMW) built in resell quickly which in turn keeps the brand from being devalued. The Lexus ES is nothing but a tarted up Camry but the two-year lease returns fly off the lot.<p>VW is light years away from being able to play in this field because it has neither the quality nor the image to do so. <p>The Passat coupe shpuld be a one-price car. If it shows up loaded for 30-32k and it thrown against the near Luxury vehicles (Lexus ES, Acura TL) it could do well. That means that the Passat must be positioned below it in the Camry range. VW will bring the Passat coupe to market at 40k or higher just watch. Then they will be mystified as to why it is not selling well.<p>When you say that the Passat ranges in price from 22-30k you clearly have not set foot inside a VW dealer in ages. V6s routinely go for 32-35k sticker price. The Jetta inhabits the 22-30k sticker price in the real world of a VW dealer. <p><br>

Verdegrrl
04-14-2005, 06:58 PM
Well, I wish you well with Hyundai. I rented a Sonata V6 for a week in Washington state and had the brake pedal switch fail, which since I was miles from any Hyundai dealer. whittled a new part from a branch and installed so the lights would work. Let me tell you, given all the hills and curves I took, I would have adored a Passat. The Sonata was OK, but I was saying to myself, "this is a good car for the money," not "this is a good car," period.<p>I won't even start on the horrors with my Toyota pickup or my father-in-law's Celica. In fact the only good Toyota I owned, was my Dad's old Crown sedan. It was really good. Dad's Cressida held up well for a long time, but ongoing problems with the head and cooling system eventually caused him to ditch it. So I wouldn't call that bullet-proof. The big oil sludge problem and Toyota's attempts to ignore it isn't long ago, nor is Honda's recalls (up to 4.5 now, isn't it?)for automatic tranmissions in V6 cars totally finished. Heck, my V6 Alfa is up to 255,000 miles and I would certainly call it reliable, if not trouble free. In trips to the Yukon and other remote places, there have been no glitches that have kept me from proceeding as desired. So if you read the data that way....... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0"><p>When you actually compare feature for feature, the VWs start better equipped, and when the competition (note: not every car remotely in that configuration) is similarly equipped (sometimes not even possible), the prices are competitive. Since the 4 cylinders are more common, that's what I compared. The numbers come from the post above from a respected website, not from dealer inventory. Your dealer can always locate the exact car you wish BTW.<p> <A HREF="http://www.alldata.com/TSB/25/01252224.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.alldata.com/TSB/25/01252224.html</A> <p> <A HREF="http://www.alldata.com/TSB/62/01625399.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.alldata.com/TSB/62/01625399.html</A> <p>As I've said many a time in this thread by now, VW dealers are sometimes atrocious. Marketing is off target (did you know about the V6 Jetta GLI as the slightly tamer compliment to the R32? Have you attended Waterfest? Have you attended some of the west coast shows?). The cars as a concept themselves are fine. Execution is sometimes not complete. I don't know what you do for a living, but I've worked in the automotive industry for over 10 years and get exposed to all kinds of cars on a constant basis. The Passat is now just starting to feel a bit antique in some ways. It's a darned good car to have remained so contemporary feeling for so long. German cars usually do feel new longer than Asian cars, even if needing more attention. If they have to change more often, that German feel will be lost. There just isn't time to do it all.<p>You're right in that short term leases help build value because people turn them around while the body style is still fresh. We're spoiled. That doesn't work most other places. Much of the rest of the world has to buy a car and keep it long time. Do the Germans pander to us, or should they look to the rest of the world? That's a tough choice, given the cost of doing business here. China presents a powerful argument. The overstated noses on the new VWs and Audis are partially in response to the Asian desire for a imposing "face."<p>More than making a pretty new coupe, VW needs to focus on good basic product. I think we can agree on that. What products and what targets, is where we differ. Connecting with the right audience is equally important and only good marketing can help them there. <p>I would respectfully submit that since the XG300 was sporty enough to suit your tastes, that perhaps you've been barking up the wrong tree all along, and that misplaced expectations is the root of some of your dissatisfaction with the brand. Hyundai's I have driven, have a certain honest rawness about them that is sometimes charming and I would certainly choose one over the Honda and Toyota, although I'd toss the lot of them for a Subaru or Mazda, not to mention Alfa or Seat. You're on the conservative side of the automotive fence, and I walk the lunatic fringe in my Alfas :) Let's leave it at that.<br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Verdegrrl at 7:17 PM 4/14/2005</i>

mzoltarp
04-15-2005, 05:23 AM
Verdegrrl, lets go carve mountains in my Rabbit GTi (full gonzo suspension). It's the best VW I've ever owned. I too am in sunny sunny California is a town where the slogan is "Bakersfield, That's Hot!" Ultimately I am saying that the VW's post my Rabbit GTi gave away simplicity and inherent goodness for social climbing and it the process lost the former and never gained the latter. I bought the XG300 because it was a good car for the money and have discovered that it is a good car period. However, now that my wife and I have decided that one child will be it (we're "elderly" parents {44} of a 2 year old), we are selling the Hyundai to a friend who wants it for her daughter and we are buying a Mustang.

Verdegrrl
04-15-2005, 10:14 AM
Agreed, VWoA never did manage to engineer/market the leap from simple cars to sophisticated cars and so people have misplaced expectations about modern VWs. In some ways it's no different than the Alfa world - especially here in North America. You've got people who think 4 cylinder is the only real Alfa, then you have people who think rwd is the only real Alfa, and then you've got folks who think only Alfas produced before the Fiat takeover are real Alfas. So which VW old timer are you? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0"> Remember when there were all those outraged old timers who thought a fwd water cooled VW wasn't a VW? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0"><p>That GTi of yours is a very good old car. However, not even the Koreans could sell it in the present marketplace. My old Alfa is also a fun car. However, our old cars aren't competitive, and people have voted time and again (to my dismay) on the showroom floor, that they want and like the bells and whistles. You can have a dull to drive car (Scion) that is cheap and simple to make and doll it up with cheap-to-engineer surface glitter and people will eat it up. Simple these days tends to mean cheap and downmarket. People will buy a cheaper car and then load up the options, rather than drive a basic but fundamentally good car. IMHO that's sad, because my next car will probably be the Audi A3, and I'd love to have the V6 with cloth seats, manual seats, and manual climate controls. Not for price, just because I like simple lightweight cars. The Passat coupe is obviously meant to appeal to folks who like a pretty, affordable, German car. Bells and whistles will create a sense of value to those people who use spread sheets more than the seat of their pants to determaine the value of a car. If VW plays it's cards right, they'll make the usual standard stuff optional this time, so they can lure people with a low base price.<p>Better than risk other drivers since we're both responsible people, bring the GTi to the track some time. Getting ready for the national convention, so I won't be there for May, but the Fall events look like a go. We have plenty of people who bring their newer VAG cars. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/beerchug.gif" BORDER="0"> <p><A HREF="http://www.arosc.org/trackcalendar.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.arosc.org/trackcalendar.htm</A>

mzoltarp
04-16-2005, 06:17 AM
My first VW was a water pumper. That said, I also was a huge air cooled devotee. I used to be very involved in vintage meets, but I also set up every water cooled VW I've owned as canyon carvers. <p>I think that until VW targets the American market with cars Americans want as opposed to trying to force Americans it do it the German way, they will be adrift. <p>VW has great potential to be the next Alfa Romeo (respected brand that goes bust in the USA). Heck VW has been here before. They nearly left the US market in the mid 90's because of an all out sales collapse.

hippoSV
04-16-2005, 07:51 AM
hmmm.VW do seem to be losing the plot;or are they really?i laughed when the phaeton was released,but quickly ate my words when i test drove it against a comparable merc/bimmer.it was better on many accounts!<br>the passat was always annoying;looking like an A6 facsimile...at A4 prices.<br>seems to me VW are just cheap(er) audi clones;for the mass market.<br>audi=lexus; vw=toyota<br>but i see nothing wrong w vw's stategy,toyota r making bucket loads conning asians n americans selling rebadged toyotas...at least audi re-engineer the platforms!americans r willing to pay $50k for a tarted up landcruiser(lx470) rather than a specialist off-roader/crossover like the audi allroad.<br>btw,lexus are laughable in europe.<br>my idea is for vw to sell specialist american models,cased on older(therefore) vw models.<br>hell,re-engineer the corrado,stick in a v6 n sell it for $20k.

Roadster44
04-16-2005, 09:51 AM
VW is competing with MB for delivering slightly upscale, upmarket cars to everyday people. That begins to be the case from Golf and Passat. Underneath...at least in Europe they have Fox, Polo and Bora/Jetta.

knicks125
04-16-2005, 12:41 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VW is competing with MB for delivering slightly upscale, upmarket cars to everyday people. That begins to be the case from Golf and Passat. Underneath...at least in Europe they have Fox, Polo and Bora/Jetta.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>How do you explain Audi then? Who are they competing with?<p>Can I also question your thoughts on MB is only delivering slight upscale cars? What is that all about?<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by knicks125 at 4:08 PM 4/16/2005</i>

spwolf
04-16-2005, 04:34 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>hippo</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hmmm.VW do seem to be losing the plot;or are they really?i laughed when the phaeton was released,but quickly ate my words when i test drove it against a comparable merc/bimmer.it was better on many accounts!<br>the passat was always annoying;looking like an A6 facsimile...at A4 prices.<br>seems to me VW are just cheap(er) audi clones;for the mass market.<br>audi=lexus; vw=toyota<br>but i see nothing wrong w vw's stategy,toyota r making bucket loads conning asians n americans selling rebadged toyotas...at least audi re-engineer the platforms!americans r willing to pay $50k for a tarted up landcruiser(lx470) rather than a specialist off-roader/crossover like the audi allroad.<br>btw,lexus are laughable in europe.<br>my idea is for vw to sell specialist american models,cased on older(therefore) vw models.<br>hell,re-engineer the corrado,stick in a v6 n sell it for $20k.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>phaeton is disaster, and Audi has yet to get non FWD platform, so much for re-engineering, eh?<p>Audi was never considered real premium brand, not even in Europe, it was step above VW but not up to MB or BMW image. All their cars are still FWD engineered.<p>Past 2 yrs have been disaster for VW group, and their market share in Europe has been slipping - not to mention in USA where they sales are horrible.<p>Audi is fine brand with fine cars, its main shortcoming seems to be the fact that VW has absolutly no strategy at all. Should phateon have been VW? Touareg? Absolutly not. What they are doing is moving VW brand upwards, seriously close to the Audi - and people dont want to buy that expensive VW's which is why they have been doing so poorly and had to offer large discounts on brand new Golf.<p>VW has to rethink their strategy and give Audi more research money so they are not simply FWD platforms but so they can compete with BMW and MB on their own merits.<p>As to the Passat and Camry pricing, you can get 5 Speed Auto 4cly Camry for 19.5k including delivery fees, with abs, a/c, power everything, cd play+6 speakers, etc. Thats substantially less than what Passat will be and Passat will once again sell a lot less than Camry. Not even that but VW does not have brand cache of Toyota to sell cars at same pricing in the US, same as Toyota not having brand cache of VW to sell cars at same pricing as VW does in the Europe. For example, new Jetta is priced same as Camry, with same options - that simply does not work in the NA, it never will work.<p>We have gazillion surveys that show quality of cars, and VW has been going downards - even Autobild's, TUV's, ADAC's - german - quality ratings shown VW as lower tier quality brand, and Japanese as #1 quality cars in Germany :-), so our cusins's or dad's experiences are just drop in the sea of real life.<p>Anyway, what I was trying to say is:<p>- Globally - VW needs to rethink their branding strategies, they are absolutly lost right now. VW, Skoda, Seat and Audi cross compete in many, many segments and that hurts VW group badly. How is Seat sportier than VW or VW better quality than Skoda? Differences dont exist right now - they only exist in press releases.<p>- North America - VW needs to design cars to compete in North America. Designing and pricing VW's to come slightly under Audi's pricing is bad strategy. 30k Jetta does not and will not work for major brand like VW. VW deserves to sell more cars in the USA. Right now they seem to compete with Acura, not Honda, Toyota.<p>As to competing with Toyota, VW and Toyota have a lot of respects for each other, and are very similar companies market wise. Executives from both companies have stated thousands of times that their goal in certain cases was to become more like VW/Toyota.<p>VW builds some fine automobiles, and latest Golf/Jetta/Passat are good cars for sure, but for NA, they can not compete with mainstream brands, and VW is mainstream brand in every other corner of the globe.

r0b
04-17-2005, 04:24 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... I can tell you that it is NOT a BMW fighter. Audis are all about luxury.<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>-&gt; that would be Mercedes!<p>Audi & Seat are specified as the "sport" brands in the WV concern!<p>How could on this pics be the Passat coupe if it has 4 doors <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0">

mzoltarp
04-17-2005, 06:02 AM
rOb,<br>There are several 4 door coupes: Mazda RX8 and Saturn Coupe. The Mercedes CLS is billed as a coupe and it has 4 conventional doors. A coupe seems to be defined these days as a faster roofline.

Roadster44
04-17-2005, 08:31 AM
Seat has an identity with its styling and fun to drive dynamics.<br>Skoda is affordable and comes well equipped. You get more for less type of deal.<br>VW has been going more upmarket which makes sense. But they still produce cars for everyone. <br>Audi is going more after BMW in terms of driving performance and luxury. Though they won't be able to touch BMW who are on a mission right now.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Roadster44 at 8:38 AM 4/17/2005</i>

knicks125
04-17-2005, 09:16 AM
spwolf has provided a great summary of VW's slump over the past few years. They are not only slumpping in their home market, and also other regions such us North America, which just happen to be biggest, as far as volume sold is concerned. VW used to be okay but more and more they seem to have lost their touch on how to target buyers...their strategy trying to be niche and having the customers become aware of their brands are more premium than the mainstream ones like Toyota, Honda doesn't work.<p>Most average consumers (a very large percentage of the market) don't care about premium, as VW is trying to offer. And those consumers do care about premium will not even look at VW, as brands such as Acura, Lexus, Infiniti are all much better than VWs, and at a price that does hurt their wallets.<p>Sales of the new Jetta & Passat will initially pick up but eventually will slide. The final verdict for VW is: they are doomed, for the time being...

mzoltarp
04-17-2005, 01:17 PM
Their engineering is also D-U-M-B dumb! The new 2.5 litre 5 cylinder in the Jetta should have belted out 200 horsepower with a commensurate amount of torque. If it did, then the base Jetta 5 speed would be a total screamer. And I know someone is going to say "yeah but the turbo is coming" but so what? The base engine is a 5 cylinder and the upmarket engine is a 4. Hmm...really dumb. The upmarket should be a 3.2 litre VR6 with 250 horsepower and a 6 speed. This strategy would make the Jetta's steep price of admission a bit more palatable given its Corolla styling.<p>The Passat should have the 2.5 and the 3.2 as well. The upmarket Passat needs a 4.3 litre VR8, which VW was also too stupid to develop.<p>And yes, I know someone will point to the W8 as they did before, but do not miss the point here. A VR8 would be compact and would fit transversely or longitudinally (in other products). The W8 is unweildy and cannot be mounted transversely. Dumb engineering.<p>The Passat coupe needs not to have the Passat name for one. For two it should have the 3.2 litre VR6 as the base and the 4.3 litre VR8 as its upmarket. Alas, VW can't pull it off.<p>If the Jetta were 20-27k, the Passat 25-32k, and the Passat coupe 30-37k with the powertrains noted, then VW's upmarket aspirations would have a chance. <p>The dowdy Golf needs to stay in Europe. The GTi would be fun as a Polo with the 2.0 litre turbo for 18k. A new Corrado VR6 for 25k and VR8 for 30k could also be another sure thing.<p>Central theme for Americans. Power, power, power. We will pay for power. Oh yeah and we love styling.<p>If you want to move upmarket you have to catch people with amazing value for the money and work upward. Hyundai hooked people with the XG300/350 at 24k and is moving people to the Azera which will bump 30k. The Sonata is also migrating upward. The hook people with a good car for the price that happens to be a damn good car and soon people are buying them because they are damn good cars. VW does not have this momemtum.<p>VW just thinks it can price its cars in Mercedes territory and that shazam! people will see them as equals. It was noted that the Phaeton is a great car. Yes it is! So what? It's a 70-100k Volkswagen. Dumb move for marketing especially with the Audi A8 in the fold!<p>VW's plan to do niche vehicles is also dumb. Niche vehicles have a notoriously short shelf life. Once the hype dies, sales die. This assumes that VW will be able to send a bevy of gotta-have niche vehicles out. That's debatable.<p>The contention that VW is after Mercedes and the Ausi is after BMW is also a dumb move. First the market for vehicles in the 40-125k range is tiny compared to the mainstream like Toyota, Honda, and Ford. Secondly, Audi is not fully vested as a true alternative to BMW and Mercedes. It's close but not fully there. So now what VW is doing is splitting their focus to try to make both VW and Audi do the same thing (i.e. target the same crowd). While there are subtle differences between BMW and Mercedes neither is less luxurious than the other and both are satisfying driver's cars. A BMW M or a Mercedes AMG is six of one half a dozen of the other. Both target the same buyer. Thus if VW is to Mercedes as Audi is to BMW, then VW and Audi are the same basic thing. Bad, bad, bad for the sales picture.<p>The sad thing is that they think they are on the right track. Lordy be!

spwolf
04-17-2005, 02:02 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Seat has an identity with its styling and fun to drive dynamics.<br>Skoda is affordable and comes well equipped. You get more for less type of deal.<br>VW has been going more upmarket which makes sense. But they still produce cars for everyone. <br>Audi is going more after BMW in terms of driving performance and luxury. Though they won't be able to touch BMW who are on a mission right now.<br><i>Modified by Roadster44 at 8:38 AM 4/17/2005</i></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Eh, there is no difference between Seat and VW in "driving" dynamics, they are all the same, use same chasis, same interiors, same engines! Fabia is Polo, Octavia is Jetta - no difference but brand name. Polo, Ibiza, Fabia? GM with European flair!<p>Audi is predominatly FWD, they are not even trying to get anywhere close to what BMW is doing, on the other hand, VW has been coming close to what Audi is doing.<p>I am just saying what industry analysts have been saying for a while: focus!

JBlair
04-17-2005, 03:40 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Their engineering is also D-U-M-B dumb! The new 2.5 litre 5 cylinder in the Jetta should have belted out 200 horsepower with a commensurate amount of torque. If it did, then the base Jetta 5 speed would be a total screamer. And I know someone is going to say "yeah but the turbo is coming" but so what? The base engine is a 5 cylinder and the upmarket engine is a 4. Hmm...really dumb. The upmarket should be a 3.2 litre VR6 with 250 horsepower and a 6 speed. This strategy would make the Jetta's steep price of admission a bit more palatable given its Corolla styling.<p>The Passat should have the 2.5 and the 3.2 as well. The upmarket Passat needs a 4.3 litre VR8, which VW was also too stupid to develop.<p>And yes, I know someone will point to the W8 as they did before, but do not miss the point here. A VR8 would be compact and would fit transversely or longitudinally (in other products). The W8 is unweildy and cannot be mounted transversely. Dumb engineering.<p>The Passat coupe needs not to have the Passat name for one. For two it should have the 3.2 litre VR6 as the base and the 4.3 litre VR8 as its upmarket. Alas, VW can't pull it off.<p>If the Jetta were 20-27k, the Passat 25-32k, and the Passat coupe 30-37k with the powertrains noted, then VW's upmarket aspirations would have a chance. <p>The dowdy Golf needs to stay in Europe. The GTi would be fun as a Polo with the 2.0 litre turbo for 18k. A new Corrado VR6 for 25k and VR8 for 30k could also be another sure thing.<p>Central theme for Americans. Power, power, power. We will pay for power. Oh yeah and we love styling.<p>If you want to move upmarket you have to catch people with amazing value for the money and work upward. Hyundai hooked people with the XG300/350 at 24k and is moving people to the Azera which will bump 30k. The Sonata is also migrating upward. The hook people with a good car for the price that happens to be a damn good car and soon people are buying them because they are damn good cars. VW does not have this momemtum.<p>VW just thinks it can price its cars in Mercedes territory and that shazam! people will see them as equals. It was noted that the Phaeton is a great car. Yes it is! So what? It's a 70-100k Volkswagen. Dumb move for marketing especially with the Audi A8 in the fold!<p>VW's plan to do niche vehicles is also dumb. Niche vehicles have a notoriously short shelf life. Once the hype dies, sales die. This assumes that VW will be able to send a bevy of gotta-have niche vehicles out. That's debatable.<p>The contention that VW is after Mercedes and the Ausi is after BMW is also a dumb move. First the market for vehicles in the 40-125k range is tiny compared to the mainstream like Toyota, Honda, and Ford. Secondly, Audi is not fully vested as a true alternative to BMW and Mercedes. It's close but not fully there. So now what VW is doing is splitting their focus to try to make both VW and Audi do the same thing (i.e. target the same crowd). While there are subtle differences between BMW and Mercedes neither is less luxurious than the other and both are satisfying driver's cars. A BMW M or a Mercedes AMG is six of one half a dozen of the other. Both target the same buyer. Thus if VW is to Mercedes as Audi is to BMW, then VW and Audi are the same basic thing. Bad, bad, bad for the sales picture.<p>The sad thing is that they think they are on the right track. Lordy be!</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Enough with the VW bashing. If you want to do it, take it to the discussion area. Now, let's talk about this coupe.............

Santeno
04-17-2005, 04:18 PM
mzoltarp, please ease up on the negative VW posts.

Verdegrrl
04-17-2005, 06:05 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>spwolf</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>phaeton is disaster, and Audi has yet to get non FWD platform, so much for re-engineering, eh?....As to the Passat and Camry pricing, you can get 5 Speed Auto 4cly Camry for 19.5k including delivery fees, with abs, a/c, power everything, cd play+6 speakers, etc. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>There isn't anything wrong with FWD for the majority of drivers. Cheaper to build and easier to handle in bad weather. 80% of all Audis sold in North America, are sold as QTRs. Of course marketing plays a huge part, and that's where FWD is currently out of favour.<p>Given the usual high levels of base equipment if the Passat coupe comes in around $25K for a 200+hp 4 banger, 30K for a 6, and mid to upper 40K for an 8, then it should give everyone a run for their money. They've got to decide their demographic though, and nail it both in features and advertising.<p><br>BTW, I did the homework - having to use the Camry LE model to get anywhere near Passat base equipment levels. Should VW decontent cars to get lower base prices?<p>A 4 cylinder Camry LE manual with added airbags, stability system, moonroof, and stereo, comes out to $22K and change. A Passat GL comes with everything except CD changer, stability program, and heavy duty rubber floor mats (regular mats are standard) for around the same price.<p>The Passat offers a 5yr/60K basic warranty comapred to the 3/36 of the Camry. Drivetrain is the same for both.<p>Rust is 5 yrs Toyota, 12 yrs VW. <p>You get 170hp and 166ft lbs of torque @1950 rpms in the VW vs 160hp and 163ft lbs @ 4000rpms in the Camry.<p>A power driver's seat is standard in the Camry, but not available in the base Passat. However, both driver and passenger seat are adjustable for height in the VW.<p>Rear heat ducts in the Passat, but not in the Camry.<p>Both front windows in the Passat are one touch, while the Camry has one.<p>Heated mirrors are standard in the Passat, but not availalbe in the Camry.<p>The Passat steering wheel is adjustable for both reach and rake. Camry has rake adjustment only.<p>Audi controls are standard on the wheel of the Camry, and not on the Passat.<p>Seatback pockets standard on Passat, not on Camry.<p>Power outlets in the rear and trunk are standard in the Passat, but not Camry.<p>Overhead console comes standard in the Camry and is not available in the Passat.<p>Camry gets front but no rear reading lights. Passat has both.<p>Floor mats are standard on VWs, but not on the Camry.<p>The Passat gets a trip computer, while Camry does not.<p>Both cars get front disc brakes, but the Camry gets drum rear brakes.<p>Traction control is standard in the Passat, while an option in the Camry.<p>Head and side airbags are optional in the Camry, while standard in the Passat.<p>Security engine immobilizer is standard in the VW, and not available in the Camry.<p>Both cars get an in-dash CD player, but the Passat has an option for a 6 changer in the trunk.<p>6 speakers Camry - 8 speakers Passat.<p>________________<br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Santeno at 9:49 AM 4/18/2005</i>

Reppu
04-17-2005, 11:26 PM
Not that anybody in the VAG group said it, but this is how i see the VAG structure should be with respect their brand positions<p><A HREF="http://www.imageshack.us" TARGET="_blank"><IMG SRC="http://img221.echo.cx/img221/7149/sinttulo26jq.jpg" BORDER="0"></A><p>In many aspects it actually is like this, but they should try to avoid all the overlapping they currently have between them

knicks125
04-18-2005, 02:30 AM
there isn't really any new information to talk about on this coupe VW has in mind. But, VW once again is starting off on a bad note...the car isn't even here yet and they are calling it (or the source's note) a MB fighter...regardless, VW needs to clear its brand identity and define itself where they are...especially here in the US: phaeton was and still is a diaster; the new Passat and the Jetta will start out pretty well but forecast a nose dive soon after; looks like the coupe will be on its way to another phaeton project if VW continues to target the wrong market and bring up ridiculous projects such as this one...

Roadster44
04-18-2005, 08:10 AM
I think there is too much drama going on here about which VW direction should or should not take. Bear in mind that people who run car companies are not all baffoons, complications usually arise from conflicting opinions, philosophies, and tight budgets. On here I don't see any real significant input other than "VW needs to establish its brand image"...and yet no specific ideas. One thing I can say that would fall into a general comment category is that it is no longer good enough to make average cars. Each vehicle must have two or three areas in which it really excels...a product that would make the customer says "wow this is really good". Whether its the styling (which right now I believe is the #1 selling point), interior design and finish, quality, fuel economy, driving dynamics. Pricing on Passat I think is fair. It ranges from 22k to 30k...maybe slightly higher. People who want a family saloon will spend on average of 25k which would get you a well equipped model. The upper end models totalling 30k will be in demand as well and now VW finally has a car that is worthy of demanding such a price tag. Besides I'm sure that VW will make less 30K Passats than lower to mid equipped models. <p>And Knicks there is no such thing as targeting wrong market..."wrong market" still spends money. VW wants to offer cars to everyone regardless of age, income, preference. They have always been somewhat of a cheaper premium brand, people turned to VW when they wanted a German car, but could not quite afford an MB or a BMW. Problem before was that their products did not deliver in relation to their pricing. Right now I strongly feel that is changing for the better. I have faith in Passat, not so sure about the Jetta. I think their products are more exciting, quality is being worked on. Challenge for VW however is to come out with products which will be simply better than those of MB.

knicks125
04-18-2005, 08:28 AM
you wanna know something funny...as much as I want to like VW, I just can't...I used to, but no longer I am.<p>If you don't like my term "wrong market", maybe I should switch up to "wrong customers". Since the fact that you keep mentioning VW is competing with MB, and that would only apply in certain regions (such as in Europe), that is not the case in the US. In europe, MB and VW have full range of different types of cars, but it's different here in the US (MB is luxury, VW is not, as simple as that). While you keep mentioning VW is trying to make products better than MB, there's what's wrong with VW, why targeting MB when they should be targeting the mainstream carmakers.<p>And no, VW is not doing well, despite what you might think or your faith...the new Passat price will not be as friendly as 22-30k when it is released...also, go take look at the YTD sales and its market share in the US thru. Mar. they should not be as low as some of the niche automakers like MB, BMW, they are supposed to be a main stream carmaker, at least its competitiors are still Toyotas and Hondas, yet they are trying to go premium and overlap with Audi (which is so much better than VW), VW has suffered enough, it's sales performance are even worse than beforementioned MB or BMW, it's time for VW to wake up...

Santeno
04-18-2005, 08:44 AM
Be nice boys. If this starts to get ugly, your posts will suffer the same fate as in the Bora/Jetta thread. Don't say you weren't warned.

knicks125
04-18-2005, 08:55 AM
I am trying to explain everything as throughly as possible, but it is hard when someone's not looking at the big picture...

Roadster44
04-18-2005, 03:15 PM
Definition of mainstream please???<br>Under $35k VW is slowly, but surely building up a portfolio of solid products that will appeal to a large audience. Yes they will be slightly more expensive, but this time unlike times past the value will equal the price.<br>Over $35k VW has soon to come products that will take on Mercedes and Lexus.<br>Audi is to remain more of a sportier brand.<br>

knicks125
04-18-2005, 05:35 PM
mainstream: toyota, honda, nissan, hyundai...cars such as the accord or the camry where the buyers of those brands take up a big % of the total buyers in the industry...<p>you can keep defending VW but I will let you see their YTD performance chart: <A HREF="http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/sales-cht12e_20050402.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.freep.com/money/aut...2.htm</A><p>VW is down 17.9% from the same period in March 04; as far as YTD is concerned, they are down 9.6% during the same period in 04, while only gaining 1.6% of the market share, both Kia and BMW are tied or ahead, and there are a lot of others with bigger market share...<p>I have nothing against VW, in fact, I used to drive a Jetta, I am just keepin' it real...and you should too, in my opinion

friends_forever
04-18-2005, 05:44 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you wanna know something funny...as much as I want to like VW, I just can't...I used to, but no longer I am.<p>If you don't like my term "wrong market", maybe I should switch up to "wrong customers". Since the fact that you keep mentioning VW is competing with MB, and that would only apply in certain regions (such as in Europe), that is not the case in the US. In europe, MB and VW have full range of different types of cars, but it's different here in the US (MB is luxury, VW is not, as simple as that). While you keep mentioning VW is trying to make products better than MB, there's what's wrong with VW, why targeting MB when they should be targeting the mainstream carmakers.<p>And no, VW is not doing well, despite what you might think or your faith...the new Passat price will not be as friendly as 22-30k when it is released...also, go take look at the YTD sales and its market share in the US thru. Mar. they should not be as low as some of the niche automakers like MB, BMW, they are supposed to be a main stream carmaker, at least its competitiors are still Toyotas and Hondas, yet they are trying to go premium and overlap with Audi (which is so much better than VW), VW has suffered enough, it's sales performance are even worse than beforementioned MB or BMW, it's time for VW to wake up...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>alright, i don't really see where vw is going with their new up-market branding strategy either, but what you're saying doesn't make any sense. they obviously want to take their brand somewhere different - in this case to a totally new market. the process has already started and there has obviously been a few setbacks thus far, but it's not like they're going to wake up one morning and all of a sudden be in the game. they're slowly pushing their products and their prices upwards and doing what they need to do to compete. maybe you don't look at vw as a bmw or mb competitor right now, but if they continue their strategy, 10-15 years down the road, it could be a totally different story. it takes time to transform a well known brand, so just chill out - it's pretty clear that they DONT want to compete with honda and toyota...<p>perhaps your love puzzling love affair with hyundai will help you understand my point better. 20 years ago, where were they? no where. they were bottom of the barrel pieces of crap. last month they just released an "near-luxury car"?? whaaa? but wait, that's hyundai! by your logic, they should be competing with horses and buggies and go carts and those strange looking old russian suv's that you sometimes see on the road. you expect me to believe that hyundai has a car that competes with the maxima?? well, i never...!<p>brands change man. it's called marketing. consumers perceptions of brands can be altered over time - it's been done.<br>

Uberwagon
04-18-2005, 07:17 PM
This thread is positively frightening...<p>VW has aging product and well-publicized quality issues with their 1.8T, hence the downturn in sales. Their move upmarket has been awkward and arguably poorly-executed but is done for sound reasons: Nobody makes money at the low-end of the market anymore. With a monster like Toyota practically "dumping" cars on the market (Scion makes no money), and Korean brands competing on price and moving up, margins are too thin. <p>The only way for them to regain profitability here is to move into the premium-mass market where profits are more robust. That's why they appear to be determined to launch a premium coupe in a sagging coupe market: Brand elevation. <p>It'll be interesting to see what happens, if nothing else.

Dodger
04-18-2005, 07:47 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>friends_forever</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>alright, i don't really see where vw is going with their new up-market branding strategy either, but what you're saying doesn't make any sense. they obviously want to take their brand somewhere different - in this case to a totally new market. the process has already started and there has obviously been a few setbacks thus far, but it's not like they're going to wake up one morning and all of a sudden be in the game. they're slowly pushing their products and their prices upwards and doing what they need to do to compete. maybe you don't look at vw as a bmw or mb competitor right now, but if they continue their strategy, 10-15 years down the road, it could be a totally different story. it takes time to transform a well known brand, so just chill out - it's pretty clear that they DONT want to compete with honda and toyota...<p>perhaps your love puzzling love affair with hyundai will help you understand my point better. 20 years ago, where were they? no where. they were bottom of the barrel pieces of crap. last month they just released an "near-luxury car"?? whaaa? but wait, that's hyundai! by your logic, they should be competing with horses and buggies and go carts and those strange looking old russian suv's that you sometimes see on the road. you expect me to believe that hyundai has a car that competes with the maxima?? well, i never...!<p>brands change man. it's called marketing. consumers perceptions of brands can be altered over time - it's been done.<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Exactly, over time. Why then is VW trying to push upmarket at such a fast rate? I cannot believe you used Hyundai as an example. The reason that Hyundai is doing so well now is that they offer everything their competitors do for a <I>reasonable</I> price. VW is not slowly pushing their prices upward, they are launching them.<p>Also, this is getting fairly off-topic. If this is to continue, we should start a thread in the discussion section.

Roadster44
04-18-2005, 10:15 PM
Uberwagon...agreed. That was my point before in saying that VW needed to underago an image change for marketing and business purposes. And so far their most failing car is the Phaeton, but even so right now it is getting so much publicity and its actually a great luxury car...trouble is its priced like one too. haha Touareg I'm not sure how its been doing in US or EU. <br>

Santeno
04-19-2005, 06:46 AM
I agree with uberwagon's last statement, however, IMO, based on what I've seen of this recent crop of vehicles from VW, I truly believe that at least in North America, VW will find resistance to their new pricing strategy. The fact is that american just don't view the VW Brand as an upmarket brand. Sure products like the Phaeton and the touareg are seen as high end, but when most people think of the brand, Images of beetles, golfs and microbuses still run through their heads. It's commendable that VW is trying to shift it's brand upmarket, but IMO, with so many other automakers already doing the same thing, It's new Jetta/Golf and Passat, just don't seem to be quite the drastic shift upmarket necessary for VW to succesfully comand the prices they are seeking. That will probably be a different story in europe where VW is viewed differently, but in NA, I believe that VW still has a lot of work to do before consumers start equating it with other german automakers (both in their hearts and in their wallets).

friends_forever
04-19-2005, 08:47 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Dodger</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Exactly, over time. Why then is VW trying to push upmarket at such a fast rate? I cannot believe you used Hyundai as an example. The reason that Hyundai is doing so well now is that they offer everything their competitors do for a <I>reasonable</I> price. VW is not slowly pushing their prices upward, they are launching them.<p>Also, this is getting fairly off-topic. If this is to continue, we should start a thread in the discussion section.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>yes, i realize this. but hyundai is slowly pushing their prices up too. i realize that these two are not exactly the same, however hyundai over time has convinced the public, for the most part, that they are not the cars they once were. by improving their products and positioning themselves as a quality-oriented import brand in the american market, they have successfully changed over the last 15 years and will continue to. it will only be a matter of time before hyundai prices their products on par with the toyotas and hondas of the world.

Dodger
04-19-2005, 08:58 AM
I see what you are saying. All I am saying is that it seems VW is trying to go upmarket too fast. I think they need to focus on value and substance starting at a lower price. Like you said, it took Hyundai 20 years to get where they are. In the US VW has been moving upmarket, but as of late there is a stronger push to get upmarket faster. I think they need to extend their time-frame for when they want this to happen. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

Roadster44
04-19-2005, 09:59 AM
I don't know if people necessary look at VW as as Beetles, Microbuses and Golfs. I think they look at it as a more of a cheaper alternative to German products. We will have to wait and see how new Jetta and Passat will do. Golf will probably have its own following...perhaps bring some customers back from Mini. Pricing is an issue and they want to maintain their margins as opposed to volume of sales. I think they need to concentrate on rest of the world first and then NA. I say that because without having a manufacturing plant here they are operating with one hand behind their back. So why produce low end cars for NA which won't give enough profits and will have to be priced higher anyways than their closest US and Japanese competitors? Same story with MB not bringing the B-Class.

Bass-o-Matic
04-19-2005, 01:13 PM
Actually, I think that VW's products through the late-'90s/early-'00s were really well executed product (on the showroom floor or very near the showroom floor). They had intriguing specifications, looked to be very well-built, with high quality materials choices, were distinctively-good looking (without looking "strange") and, as much as all of these attributes made them seem to be nearly-Luxury, undercut even most "Near Luxury" brands in pricing.<p>What I think has proven to be their great undoing is how poorly they have done once these cars hit the road, in the hands of well-meaning & high quality customers. <br>-First, we all know about the quality issues with certain recent VW products;<br>-Volumes increased significantly in this period of time, increasing pressure on after-sales service, in the best of times;<br>-VW had a 2-year Free Maintenance plan on all products, creating even more pressure for just the most mundane of maintenance. Weeks of advanced planning was NOT unheard of with VW dealerships who, just years before were experiencing a fraction of the new traffic. Add in the increased pressure of the Warranty & Recall business experienced with these new products (with the attendant unhappy customers associated with these contacts) and you had a potential for really ugly customer service relations.<br>-VWoA, perhaps due to the high costs with certain recalls, instituted extremely rigid rules for their own phone center personnel's contacts with customers. Almost regardless of what the problem might be, VWoA personnel were directed to not provide any kind of goodwill support unless there was a formal directive on the matter. If your problem, no matter how endemic it might actually be with your model/ spec of VW, wasn't formally documented (TSB or otherwise) somewhere in the system, you were to be denied virtually any support, without any recourse. <br>- As good as they are, the Phaeton & Touareg (which is apparently doing okay) launched into a luxury market that has had facilities & customer handling standards rise to industry-leading standards and into dealerships that have historically suffered from operating at something below these high standards.<p>I like VW products but it would seem that the product end of the equation (except, of course, for the warranty/recall issues) is better than the overall shopping/ ownership experience. And, frankly, at this level, isn't that what really separates competitors?

CalinG7
04-19-2005, 02:45 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Uberwagon</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Their move upmarket has been awkward and arguably poorly-executed but is done for sound reasons: Nobody makes money at the low-end of the market anymore. The only way for them to regain profitability here is to move into the premium-mass market where profits are more robust. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>With all due respect, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. If your statement were true, VW would have abandoned the low end. Instead, last decade they bought two MORE low end brands, Seat and Skoda. <p>The problem with VW is that they took one of the most well known, most recognized brands in the entire world, one selling millions of cars per year, one that is not very exclussive, and one, as Santeno pointed out, one that is mostly known for Beatles, Golfs, Microbuses, and other mainstream, mass-market vehicles, and decided to make it compete against BMWs. <p>If they wanted another upmarket brand, why didn't they buy another one instead of buying Seat and Skoda, or create one like the Japanese have done. Toyota wanted to go upmarket too, but they created Lexus. And GM isn't trying to position Chevrolet as a Mercedes competitor just because there are more profits in that segment. <p>Why take Volkswagen upmarket? Luxury brands have barely now, some of them, crossed the 1 million sales mark. I don't have exact numbers, but I know VW already sells 2 or 3 million units a year. It's pretty hard to sell 2 or 3 million luxury units a year, at least without losing a lot of sales, so again, why take VW upmarket instead of one of their other smaller, less well known brands?

Roadster44
04-19-2005, 03:08 PM
It'll take a while before people will change their perception of VW as a brand that has vehicle on par with S-Class. However their goal is to have cars for everyone.

CalinG7
04-20-2005, 01:10 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It'll take a while before people will change their perception of VW as a brand that has vehicle on par with S-Class. However their goal is to have cars for everyone. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Does that make sense? Do S-class owners want to shop at the same dealerships that sell $10,000 Lupos or Foxs? One of the big reasons the Japanese luxury brands were so successful in the US was the dealership experience, which gave unparalleled treatment and exclusivity. Trying to be a jack of all trades mostly means you're never a master at any, and that's really the price of admission in todays' competitive market, both at the luxury and the volume ends.

Uberwagon
04-20-2005, 01:20 PM
CalinG7, I disagree with your staemenet. here's why:<p>First, VW gave up the low end of the market YEARS ago. They barely sell any entry level golfs (that aren't cheap) and the bulk of their sales come from Jettas priced around $20k (which they don't make money on). Honda and Toyota have eaten them alive and now even those brands are losing money and being pushed up and out by the Koreans (who are wisely moving up too). NOBODY makes any worthwhile money at the low end anymore, particularly VW. It's a business FACT.<p>Second, how many SEATs and Skodas do you see *here* in the USA, in your neighborhood of L.A.? That's right, none. That's because VW knows they can't sell cheap, money-losing cars *here* and continue to eat schnitzel. Please read the post more carefully.<p>Third, your assumption that taking on SEAT and Skoda was a good decision is simply incorrect. It wasn't. It's been a burden on VW's resources, a drain on their profits and makes no money. That's why they're starting to move those brands upmarket too.<p>Finally, to answer the question, "why would they take VW up?": selling millions of cars and losing billions doesn't make business sense (witness GM). With exchange rates the way they are, VW can not compete in today's market as a *viable business* by selling millions of cheap money-losing products. They've tried and failed (see quality issues/long product cycles). They see, in crystal clarity, that BMW & MB are now taking over as the top selling German brands in the U.S. The result is simple strategic common sense: THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. They can move up-market (like it or not) or they risk being pushed out of the largest automobile market in the world.<p>Sorry to sound harsh CalinG7.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Santeno at 4:56 PM 4/20/2005</i>

Verdegrrl
04-20-2005, 03:14 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CalinG7</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Does that make sense? Do S-class owners want to shop at the same dealerships that sell $10,000 Lupos or Foxs? </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Doesn't Mercedes offer cars starting from $25K, all the way up to $120K? <p>

CalinG7
04-20-2005, 03:57 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Uberwagon</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) First, VW gave up the low end of the market YEARS ago. They barely sell any entry level golfs (that aren't cheap) and the bulk of their sales come from Jettas priced around $20k (which they don't make money on). <br>2) Honda and Toyota have eaten them alive and now even those brands are losing money and being pushed up and out by the Koreans (who are wisely moving up too). NOBODY makes any worthwhile money at the low end anymore, particularly VW. It's a business FACT.<br>3) Second, how many SEATs and Skodas do you see *here* in the USA, in your neighborhood of L.A.? That's right, none. That's because VW knows they can't sell cheap, money-losing cars *here* and continue to eat schnitzel. Please read the post more carefully.<br>4) Third, your assumption that taking on SEAT and Skoda was a good decision is simply incorrect. It wasn't. It's been a burden on VW's resources, a drain on their profits and makes no money. That's why they're starting to move those brands upmarket too.<br>5) With exchange rates the way they are, VW can not compete in today's market as a *viable business* by selling millions of cheap money-losing products. They've tried and failed (see quality issues/long product cycles). <br>6) They see, in crystal clarity, that BMW & MB are now taking over as the top selling German brands in the U.S. The result is simple strategic common sense: THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. They can move up-market (like it or not) or they risk being pushed out of the largest automobile market in the world.<p><i>Modified by Santeno at 4:56 PM 4/20/2005</i></TD></TR></TABLE> <p>Thank you for cleaning that up Santeno. And Uberwagon, if my post offended you I appologise, it wasn't intentional. I will try to address your post with the my own opinions and the information I hava available, but it's just a friendly debate, nothing personal. <p>1) Dang, VW doesn't make any money selling $20,000 compact cars. Somebody's head should roll. Toyota starts their compact Corolla at about 13K or 14K and I'm pretty sure it's profitable. Including with the rest of their lineup they pocketed $12 Billion last year. It should be possible. <p>2) I don't really know where your second point came from. Maybe you can elaborate. Like I said, Toyota made $12 Billion in profit last year. Not revenue, but profit, pocket money. And that was also accompanied by them moving downmarket in some ways. The newly introduced, and highly successful Sienna stickered for about $1,000 less than the previous generation. Scion can also be considered a move downmarket. Those are pretty cheap cars, almost at Korean prices. <p>3) What post was I supposed to read more carefully? I'm not sure. Regardless, I mentioned Seat and Skoda as indicators of their overall strategy. The point was that, far from abandoning the low end, at least initially, they had in fact bought two aditional pretty low end brands. The fact that they're not sold here could be attributed to many things. It costs billions to introduce a brand in this market. Just ask Renault, PSA, Fiat, Alfa Romeo. They're all dying to get back in here, but they're still worried about how to do it and how much it would cost. VW already has two brands here, so adding two more is probably not as justafiable (as it probably wasn't in Europe, but that's my opinion).<p>4) As far as this point, maybe you should have read my post more carefully. I didn't suggest it was a good move. I always thought they had a pretty good one in VW. Also, now Seat and Skoda are moving upmarket too? How far? Where will it end? At the Audi level, Bentley.........?<p>5) True, the exchange rates are bad. But I remeber reading an article stating that VW did not believe in hedging for currency fluctuations like BMW and Mercedes did, which would be one reason why the got in trouble. Additionally, building American factories would also reduce some of the exchge risks, and there are rumors that VW or Audi or both do in fact intend to build a factory here. <p>6) This we will just have to disagree on. Most brands would probably like to be upmarket, where it's easier to charge premiums and make a profit. Even that's not guaranteed, though, as Saab, for example, is a premium brand that has lost money consistently for the last decade. It's just a simple question of proper management. You can lose money spectacularly at both the low end or the luxury end (ex. Mercedes, at least this year). Conversely you can also make lots of money at both ends. Toyota I've mentioned, though I believe Nissan is the most profitable mass market brand. Hyundai too has had to have made plenty of money selling at the low end in order to invest in improving their producst and moving upmarket themselves. Like I said, though most would like to move upmarket, as soon as one brand does, another brand will see an opportunity to jump into that vacated spot. After all, not everybody can afford $30,000 for a midsize family sedan, or a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. <p>Hope my post didn't offend you this time.

randy59
04-20-2005, 05:18 PM
There seems to be an argument here. My only thought is if Mercedes and BMW can sell cars across a range of price points, why wouldn't the same strategy work for VW? It seems to me Volkswagen's biggest mistake isn't going up market, it's with the current exchange rate environment that they didn't begin building a factory here a long time ago like BMW and Toyota. It takes a lot longer to build a factory than it does for currency to fluctuate in value.

knicks125
04-20-2005, 07:23 PM
The thing is that, no one I know, and across the board (at least most people) don't view VW as a luxury brand, not even premium for that matter. So while BMWs and MBs are able to profit, VW will never do, as long as Audi is above VW, there will never be a place for VW competing with BMWs and MBs.<p>So since that's gone, let's move to the other side of the specturm. No, the market place was never eaten by Toyotas & Hondas, it's the fact that VW never knew how to play the game. Most of the profitable entry level carmakers are now out of Asia, and I know for a fact most of them have not been in the US for a very long time; while they are able to succeed with their products, why couldn't VW produce the same results? Toyota, Hondas and other Asian carmakers didn't just eat up the US market overnight, they came to the US market with their respective strategies, goals and systems, and most of them succeed, from the results we have seen today, and the market share they have grabbed, and contiuned to increase, now why couldn't VW do it, even though they are considered to be the better product and regarded as so called german engineered?<p>I believe VW is right now at a standstill with no where to go. Obviously they can't go up (well they could but they won't have much success at it) b/c luxury cars already parked there, so does Audi btw; on th other hand, they can't go down, it's already marked up by many Asian automakers. So, exactly, they are stuck, they should have made their moves a while ago, and now the time is too late...

Uberwagon
04-21-2005, 01:18 AM
CalinG7, you misquoted me in your post with your numbering and omissions. Please edit. Thanks. Also, Santeno edited two key points to keep things civil between us (Thanks for the movie, mate!). I'll reiterate those here, albeit as diplomatically as possible.<p>One by one:<p>1. No, Corolla doesn't make a penny. They lose money on them quite deliberately and wisely as a loss-leader. Camrys don't make money either. They break even there. Toyota's massive profits come nearly 100% from trucks. This ensures economies of scale, brand satisfaction and dealer service profits, which are considerable. It's the nature of today's market and Toyota's progressive business plan: Lose money tactically on some models so you can clean up strategically on the ones that count. If only all manufacturers were so enlightened.<p>2. Scion loses money. Toyota is nearly dumping these inexpensive JDM models on the market so they can a) make money with young (hopefully) repeat buyers later, b) gain share and c) make money on accessories, which they do very nicely. Toyota can do this because of economies of scale, which VW can not come close to matching.<p>3. As I said before, in my previous post, VW is moving upmarket HERE in the US market (which you deemed "wrong"). Your reply used Skoda and SEAT as evidence of this. As we all know, Skoda and SEAT are not HERE in the US and VW's cars have been absent from the low-end of the market for some time, as you contested.<p>4. By using Skoda and SEAT as evidence that VW was not abandoning the low-end, you presume that this was a smart or otherwise correct move. Since they have lost billions of Euros on this endeavor and are being weighed down by these brands, it's simply not valid. It isn't a dis: This is a well known industry issue.<p>5. Hedging against currency fluctuations is done by ALL manufacturers. It's a short-term move against long-term trends and, by nature of currency market predictions, is inherently tactical. VW, as a sub-premium brand, suffers from this issue, BIG TIME. Not sure where you read all these rumors but VW one-upped everyone by undercutting American costs by building a plant in Mexico (they were also the first foreign plant in the US in Westmorland, Pa. in the 70's). They still have trouble keeping costs in check because of spiraling GDM developmental costs and MB has cancelled their B-class for currency reasons alone.<p>6. I don't know where to begin here. Your facts are simply incorrect. Nissan is NOT even close to the most profitable mass market brand. Mercedes is NOT losing out. Etc, etc. Straight up -- and this is what Santeno edited before for diplomacy reasons -- you are not up to date on the events and economics of this business. I hope this doesn't get edited because I think we can all raise the level of discourse by acknowledging that that this forum can not presume to know enough to comment on massively complex economic issues that require sophisticated and proprietary kinds of strategic analysis.<p>If we, as a forum want to make sweeping generalizations about business issues we don't understand, that's cool. But if anyone wants to understand why companies like VW are doing the strange things they are doing (like moving upmarket so fast), just listen. There are three VERY senior level industry insiders on this forum who represent the pinnacle of industry intelligence and regularly shed light on the issues, at some risk. If we were to tell you who we are, you would definitely be surprised and our shareholders would fire us, immediately.<p>So relax. Read. Think. And above all, take a look at and follow the industry press before dismissing so brazenly the commonly known facts in this industry. It'll help all of us here to better understand what is a very complex business and take this AMAZING forum to a new level.<p>Cheers. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/beerchug.gif" BORDER="0">

knicks125
04-21-2005, 05:38 AM
Yeah...seen as how this whole thread has nothing to do with the coupe...I think we should just move this one to the discussion section...more, people are more interested in VW than its products...VWvortex people should be happy to hear that <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0">

iakovos
04-21-2005, 09:51 AM
Well... they did try to go upmarket... see the Pheathon and Touareg... but it backfired.. especially Pheathon is selling at 10% of the projected rate<p>VW has an upmarket brand Audi.<br>If they wanted to go upmarket they would buy something else .. not rock bottom makes like SEAT and SKODA which are only good in Europe to take sales from the low end Koreans..

Verdegrrl
04-21-2005, 10:36 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>iakovos</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well... they did try to go upmarket... see the Pheathon and Touareg... but it backfired.. especially Pheathon is selling at 10% of the projected rate<p>VW has an upmarket brand Audi.<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>The Phaeton was too big of a leap. The Touareg seems to be doing reasonably well, given rising fuel prices are cutting into almost all larger SUV sales for the moment. <p>Audi is supposed to chase down BMW in the sporty segment. Newly released/announced product shows them closing the gap, and product in the pipeline should help complete that push. That leaves the profitable luxury segment open. VW needs to pull a Lexus by re-inventing itself. However, it can't do that with the present infrastructure and image here. <p>As I've said all along, they went up too fast. They went from selling themselves as makers of affordable German economy cars, to wanting to sell $50K cars in the span of 5 years. The premium image they've built for themselves in Europe didn't happen overnight, and it can't be done here either without doing the aforementioned Lexus trick (build all new dealers and set high standards while selling the cars for a fraction of cost) or getting their ducks a row when it comes to quality control and dealer facilities/staff. <p>Most of you have proably been to VW showroom, and most of you know a VW salesperson isn't exactly cream of the crop. That's because they often make what is known the industry as "minis." That's the smallest commission a salesperson can make at a dealer, and comes into effect when the profit margin for the dealer falls below a certain point (salesperson usually makes 20% of the profit margin). A mini is usually $50 to $100. A salesperson sells between 10 and 25 cars a month, depending on skill, dedication, inventory, and season. Do the math and you can see that the dealership isn't going to be able to attract top people. Add in the fact that many salespeople must work weekends, evenings, and holidays (when other people are off), and some work 6 days a week, and it gets even more unattractive. That whole system applies to the rest of the dealer staff in one form or another. On top of hat, there is an industry shortage of qualified people at all levels of dealership employment, from techs to salespeople.<p>A Lexus dealer must interview and videotape employees that come into contact with the customers. That tape gets sent to headquarters for final approval. Of course the dealer and potential hire are happy to do so, since in the early days of Lexus dealers, Toyota gave them almost $10K in profits per LS400 (holdback and margin). As a salesperson, 20% of that sum was not inconsiderable. You could take your time with the customer and afford to learn your product inside and out. Margins and incentives to Lexus dealers have been trimmed back since then, but it's still a good place to work if you have some sophistication want to make money.<p>So in order to sell upmarket cars, VW needs to not only price them according to consumer expectations, but also improve the dealer experience. The product can only sell itself for a short time while fresh and new, but it takes a good sales force to give it legs. That includes the Passat Coupe.

knicks125
04-21-2005, 11:37 AM
Uberwagon, you need to check your stats before making generalization about profits from companies such as Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. Aside from that, VW in US is not considered luxury brand, it is not even considered premium. VW is mainstream and entry level, just like Honda & Toyota.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Santeno at 2:43 PM 4/21/2005</i>

Portico
04-21-2005, 11:46 AM
Hi everyone. Longtime lurker finally voicing in!<p>I have worked with Volkswagon of America for most of my career. I can tell everyone that Uburwagon is 100% correct. My company has very little choice. We have been forced to exit the entry level segment of the market. There is no money to be made on such commodity vehicles any longer. The exchange rate makes this prohibitive for German automobiles also. This is why they are "considering" luxury vehicles such as this Passat coupe. (I can't share more. Sorry.) Phaeton was not a success here for being too ambitious. But the purpose was as UW suggests. Move upmarket or exit North America which VW will not let happen. His analysis of our company is very perceptive.

Roadster44
04-21-2005, 11:48 AM
Knicks your perceptions are your own. But let me phrase this without being impolite...why do you think VW is an entry-level to mainstream manu? Why do you think people look at it as such?

knicks125
04-21-2005, 11:53 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Knicks your perceptions are your own. But let me phrase this without being impolite...why do you think VW is an entry-level to mainstream manu? Why do you think people look at it as such?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>It certaintly is not just my own perception. I have talked with other (current and past) VW owners, myself included and they have the same perceptions. Let me ask you this, would you consider a Jetta to be a luxury car? would you consider the Passat to be luxury?<p>However, Phaeton and Touareg, I believe, are luxury cars, but was there any success in those two cars? Not really. Phaeton was a failed project, and the Touareg sales are sluggish, for various reasons...

Santeno
04-21-2005, 11:56 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Uberwagon, you need to check your stats before making generalization about profits from companies such as Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Actually knicks125, Uberwagon is not too far off on his assesment. He did overereach a little on the toyota/scion comments . They don't loose money on a per car sale to building cost ratio - though profits are slim - they do however end up in the red when you factor in overall expenses, but that's to be expected on new brands. Toyota does make money on the camry, by amortising it's platform and component sets over a very wide variety of vehicles (some of which sell for a marked premium over the camry). It's not quite as cut and dry as he made it sound, but the essence of his coments are true.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Aside from that, VW in US is not considered luxury brand, it is not even considered premium. VW is mainstream and entry level, just like Honda & Toyota.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Actually you are incorrect here as well. VW since the late 90's has steadily moved into a more premium market segment. Their new products have only continued that move upward. Just ask verdegirl to describe the typical VW costumer over the past few years. All their products have been priced at or near the top of the categories in which they compete for a few years now. The perception of VW in the US is currently split, between those who still see the brand as the maker of the Rabbit, and those who know it as the maker of the passatt (and value the rest of their products in comparison to that vehicle).

Portico
04-21-2005, 11:57 AM
Hello Knicks125<p>I believe uburwagon to be correct in his analysis. Toyota loses money to make money. At their size they can buy their profits. Sales are well known but source of profits is not gen. available. If he knows he may be finance or sr. engineer. Also, VW is premium in US. This is why we command larger pricing than Toyota and Honda for similar product. $25-40k is not entry. Toyota and Honda recognice this too.<p>

knicks125
04-21-2005, 12:02 PM
I certaintly was a big VW fan back in the days. That said, their strategy moving up the market has not gotten them anywhere. Their sales are slumping - I recall down 17% vs. the same period in March, and for the year down at least 9% YOY.<p>For years now VW has try to move up market, but obviously the strategy has yet to work. It's time to try something else...

Portico
04-21-2005, 12:05 PM
Ah-ha! Should we move down-market into commodity vehicles then? Knicks125, you are funny. You should read the trade papers more. Then you will see. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0">

knicks125
04-21-2005, 12:08 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Portico</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ah-ha! Should we move down-market into commodity vehicles then? Knicks125, you are funny. You should read the trade papers more. Then you will see. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Actually, as I said earlier, going down won't work either, since that market is already saturated by Toyotas, Hondas, and newcomers such as Nissans and Hyundais. VW is stuck in NA...

Santeno
04-21-2005, 12:10 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I certaintly was a big VW fan back in the days. That said, their strategy moving up the market has not gotten them anywhere. Their sales are slumping - I recall down 17% vs. the same period in March, and for the year down at least 9% YOY.<p>For years now VW has try to move up market, but obviously the strategy has yet to worked. It's time to try something else...</TD></TR></TABLE><br>So do you admit that your previous assesment was not exactly correct? Don't forget that changes in this business are glacial. If VW is serious about moving that brand upmarket, doing it like they did with the Phaeton (Immediately offering an extremely competent sedan in the same market and at the same price as the high priced competition) will lead to further rejection from the buying public. From everything I've been reading, they seem to be continuing their move upmarket (and changing the opinion of their brand), but are now taking a more gradual approach (even though it's hard to tell from their prices). They did it before when they moved Audi upmarket, and that took what, 20 years? It took lexus almost 15 before the entire brand was considered to be in the same category as the competition (not just some models). It's taken infiniti about as long (and Acura longer) and they haven't quite managed it yet. It takes time to change peoples attitudes, and it's only consistently great product and great ownership experiences that change consumer attitudes. VW hasn't gotten that mix quite right yet, but here's hoping that they do (sooner rather than later).

knicks125
04-21-2005, 12:15 PM
My previous assessment will stand. I said Phaeton and Touareg are, to me, considered luxury cars, but as we know VW has other models (more than the two above) and certaintly those other models take up the majority of the sale. So, while VW has luxury brands, overall they are still considered mainstream.<p>I never said moving upmarket was easy and you are right about all of the other companies you mentioned. However, in VW's attempt so far, I believe they have made the critical mistake by jumping so high up the latter with their Phaeton project. One step at a time, please...

Santeno
04-21-2005, 12:21 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My previous assessment will stand.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Then I suggest you compare current and previous generation Golfs and Jettas aginst similar types of vehicles (of the same model years) from other manufacturers. You'll find that the VW's consitently commanded more premium pricing.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...I believe they have made the critical mistake by jumping so high up the latter with their Phaeton project. One step at a time, please...</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Now we agree. One step at a time. That's what they should have done from day one. Give people brilliant products and gradually move into new market segments, thus giving people time to get used to the company moving upmarket (and for attitudes to adjust). The $40K-odd jump from a passat to a phaeton is far more than most people are willing to accept as an upgrade (especially when the VW brand - notice I didn't say VW - is an unknown entity at those prices). They should have done like lexus and priced the phaeton lower, or introduce an in-between model (or two). I'm not counting the Touareg here because its a diffrent type of vehicle and I'm making the assumption that most VW drivers would rather stay in a car instead of an SUV.

knicks125
04-21-2005, 12:44 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Santeno</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You'll find that the VW's consitently commanded more premium pricing.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>That is true but the demanded premium pricing has not changed the perceptions of many in regards to VW as a mainstream carmaker. I know for a fact that the many buyers turned to the A4 when they saw the price of the Passat and found out they can get a better product for not much more in money...<p>One other thing, I started this theard to discuss the coupe...but the majority of the discussions generated here are non-relevant to this car. Admins please move this thread to the discussion thread and change the name, that is only fair...

Portico
04-21-2005, 12:50 PM
I do not know what calin and knicks are arguing for here anymore. I reread the thread and I can not understand what their point is. If they reject the expert, the insider information and the facts of the industry, then what is the point? <p>It would be best to talk about the Passat Coupe, yes?

knicks125
04-21-2005, 12:59 PM
Well if we have no argument here then why is VW doing so terrible in NA? <p>Obviously you are biased since you work for them, but you need to get out and hear what the VW fans and owners are saying....save them some grace please...it is time for VW to have a reality check...<p>We don't trust the experts, inside information, etc? What if they are wrong? Not everyone's perfect you know...<p>I don't trust anyone except myself...learn to be a pioneer not a follower...

CalinG7
04-21-2005, 01:05 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Uberwagon</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">CalinG7, you misquoted me in your post with your numbering and omissions. Please edit. Thanks. Also, Santeno edited two key points to keep things civil between us (Thanks for the movie, mate!). I'll reiterate those here, albeit as diplomatically as possible.<p>One by one:<p>1. No, Corolla doesn't make a penny. They lose money on them quite deliberately and wisely as a loss-leader. Camrys don't make money either. They break even there. Toyota's massive profits come nearly 100% from trucks. This ensures economies of scale, brand satisfaction and dealer service profits, which are considerable. It's the nature of today's market and Toyota's progressive business plan: Lose money tactically on some models so you can clean up strategically on the ones that count. If only all manufacturers were so enlightened.<p>2. Scion loses money. Toyota is nearly dumping these inexpensive JDM models on the market so they can a) make money with young (hopefully) repeat buyers later, b) gain share and c) make money on accessories, which they do very nicely. Toyota can do this because of economies of scale, which VW can not come close to matching.<p>3. As I said before, in my previous post, VW is moving upmarket HERE in the US market (which you deemed "wrong"). Your reply used Skoda and SEAT as evidence of this. As we all know, Skoda and SEAT are not HERE in the US and VW's cars have been absent from the low-end of the market for some time, as you contested.<p>4. By using Skoda and SEAT as evidence that VW was not abandoning the low-end, you presume that this was a smart or otherwise correct move. Since they have lost billions of Euros on this endeavor and are being weighed down by these brands, it's simply not valid. It isn't a dis: This is a well known industry issue.<p>5. Hedging against currency fluctuations is done by ALL manufacturers. It's a short-term move against long-term trends and, by nature of currency market predictions, is inherently tactical. VW, as a sub-premium brand, suffers from this issue, BIG TIME. Not sure where you read all these rumors but VW one-upped everyone by undercutting American costs by building a plant in Mexico (they were also the first foreign plant in the US in Westmorland, Pa. in the 70's). They still have trouble keeping costs in check because of spiraling GDM developmental costs and MB has cancelled their B-class for currency reasons alone.<p>6. I don't know where to begin here. Your facts are simply incorrect. Nissan is NOT even close to the most profitable mass market brand. Mercedes is NOT losing out. Etc, etc. Straight up -- and this is what Santeno edited before for diplomacy reasons -- you are not up to date on the events and economics of this business. I hope this doesn't get edited because I think we can all raise the level of discourse by acknowledging that that this forum can not presume to know enough to comment on massively complex economic issues that require sophisticated and proprietary kinds of strategic analysis.<p>If we, as a forum want to make sweeping generalizations about business issues we don't understand, that's cool. But if anyone wants to understand why companies like VW are doing the strange things they are doing (like moving upmarket so fast), just listen. There are three VERY senior level industry insiders on this forum who represent the pinnacle of industry intelligence and regularly shed light on the issues, at some risk. If we were to tell you who we are, you would definitely be surprised and our shareholders would fire us, immediately.<p>So relax. Read. Think. And above all, take a look at and follow the industry press before dismissing so brazenly the commonly known facts in this industry. It'll help all of us here to better understand what is a very complex business and take this AMAZING forum to a new level.<p>Cheers. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/beerchug.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Uberwagon, what's with the talking down to me? Santeno shouldn't need to edit posts in order to keep things civil. You and I should be able to do that just fine. I read your posts before Santeno edited them, and you don't need to school me, nor do I need a Ph.D. in order to give my opinion on this site. And if you can show me where I misquoted the essence of your post with my omissions I would more than happy to edit my post. <p>1) I don't believe your claim of Toyota losing money on Corrolas and Camrys, but if you can provide proof I will accept it and change my mind. Even so, just the fact that Toyota can offer a compact car for $14,000 and with the rest of their lineup, including trucks, make $12+ Billion in profits shows that it can be done. Your contention is the VW NEEDS to move upmarket. I guess that's not true. They can either move upmarket or adopt Toyota's business plan. Either one could be profitable. <p>2) That might be true. I don't have any concrete info on Scion. Still, Toyota found a way of making money even on cars priced that low (by selling accessories). These guys are geniuses, and again prove it can be done. You're right in that it would probably be more difficult for VW because of their disadvantage in economies of scale.<p>3) Sorry, but I didn't really understand what you were trying to say with your third point. I have a simple brain, you see. <p>4) This will be the second time I say that buying Seat and Skoda was not a good move for VW. Not, No, Nein, Nyet. As the market moved towards premium brands VW bought and invested in two low end brands. Dumb move. I'll say it a third time if you'd like, but this should be enough. <p>5) I'll try to look for the article I was refering to. The Puebla factory was a good move, but more is needed. Another factory somewhere in NA would help both VW and Audi, in my humble, less informed opinion. <p>6) Nissan is not one of the most profitable mass market brands? Mercedes didn't lose money this year? I'll try to look for some articles to back those points up too. I'm not good at it but I'll search. <p>The rest of your post was just an "I'm better than you" tirade. Maybe us plebeians, you know, the ones who buy the stuff you industry insiders try to sell us, should step back and let the three of discuss these issues which are obviously over our heads. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/pukeface.gif" BORDER="0">

knicks125
04-21-2005, 01:12 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CalinG7</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Uberwagon, what's with the talking down to me? Santeno shouldn't need to edit posts in order to keep things civil. You and I should be able to do that just fine. I read your posts before Santeno edited them, and you don't need to school me, nor do I need a Ph.D. in order to give my opinion on this site. And if you can show me where I misquoted the essence of your post with my omissions I would more than happy to edit my post. <p>The rest of your post was just an "I'm better than you" tirade. Maybe us plebeians, you know, the ones who buy the stuff you industry insiders try to sell us, should step back and let the three of discuss these issues which are obviously over our heads. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/pukeface.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>I said something along the same lines although Santeno thought I went to far so he edited out the last part of my response to Uberwagon. I certaintly agree with you 100%, he made it sound like we don't know anything...<p>without going into anything too explicit, as I said before, I hate when people parade around their status...this arrogant attitude can not be healthy in life.

CalinG7
04-21-2005, 01:14 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Portico</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I do not know what calin and knicks are arguing for here anymore. I reread the thread and I can not understand what their point is. If they reject the expert, the insider information and the facts of the industry, then what is the point? <br> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>With all due respect Portico, but it was industry insiders and experts who ran GM, Ford, MG Rover, and a mess of other companies into the ground. As Knick said, "experts" are still human, so they make mistakes.

Santeno
04-21-2005, 01:27 PM
Alright guys, enough of this. Knicks is right. <b>Get back on-topic</b>. any more posts that aren't related to the coupe will be deleted. if you guys want to keep talking about VW, please start a thread in the discussions section. thanks.

Portico
04-21-2005, 01:31 PM
Since I am privy to the facts at VW which you two are debating, I'll offer one last post on this issue for you, Calin.<p>Uberwagon was correct in his analysis. He clearly understands the issues. You asked why VW did the things they did in your post. He replied with a 100% accurate report of industry facts and the thinking at VW (so much that I wonder if he is here) that answered that question. I believe it was a very fair view.<p>I do not wish to take sides but "wrong, wrong, wrong" is inflamatory Calin. You must have expected a response to such a statement after he answered your question, no?<p>This forum is not fun. Goodbye.<p><br>

CalinG7
04-21-2005, 02:06 PM
I guess VW should at least be happy that they're still inspiring such heated, passionate debate. I hope the Passat coupe helps them out in implementing their strategy, though it will be difficult. Coupes, especially, are hot for one or two years and usually cool off pretty considerably afterwards. If VW sees this as more of an image car than a volume car, and invests as such, they could pull it off. <p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Portico</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I do not wish to take sides but "wrong, wrong, wrong" is inflamatory Calin. You must have expected a response to such a statement after he answered your question, no?<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Sorry Santeno but I would like to appologise to Portico. I'm sorry you got offended and you're right, I should've worded my post differently. I already appologised to Uberwagon for that, and now to you. That doesn't excuse what else was said, but I think I've done my part now.

fubar
04-21-2005, 02:39 PM
The car looks hot. Whether it will do well at that price-point has yet to be seen. Blind or not. Misguided or no, at least VW has the "cajones" to create a car that dynamic.

Santeno
04-21-2005, 02:45 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>fubar</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...at least VW has the "cajones" to create a car that dynamic.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>I believe the word you are looking for is "cojones" (which means testicles or in this sense "to have balls"). "Cajones" means large boxes or drawers (of which I'm sure VW also has plenty). <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">

fubar
04-21-2005, 05:18 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Santeno</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>I believe the word you are looking for is "cojones" (which means testicles or in this sense "to have balls"). "Cajones" means large boxes or drawers (of which I'm sure VW also has plenty). <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/1orglaugh.gif" BORDER="0"> My bad. Yes COJONES

Vector
04-21-2005, 06:51 PM
This will be a very interesting car. VW needs to bring their brand up with innovative statement products as has been stated here. I'm not sure they are ready to compete at the $70k level but if it is at 35 or so this will work.<br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Santeno at 9:26 AM 4/22/2005</i>

Uberwagon
04-25-2005, 01:47 AM
Wow, I go away on business and look what I find in this thread when I get back: A s---storm! Sorry to anyone who was annoyed by all this. I feel partially responsible for, uh, inspiring such discussion with my analysis. Hopefully Portico will come back. I think we could all appreciate a VW insider's value to our discussion and ask a few questions about this model! For VW's sake, I hope this possible model is priced more reasonably.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Santeno at 1:31 PM 4/26/2005</i>

hippoSV
04-26-2005, 11:56 PM
the passat coupe is a logical step for vw.bmw sell loads of 3er coupes.volkwagen need to fulfil all niches n segments;yet still undercut when it comes to mainstream models.<br>toyota is the business model vw need to emulate.<br>u guys in europe n america dont know how easy u got it.here in malaysia,there are 4 luxury brands:-<br>1.mercedes<br>2.toyota(we dont import lexus' ,so we get toyota versions)<br>3.bmw<br>4.volvo<br>...audi is perceived as a poor man's merc,equivalent to perhaps ford!<br>this is a country(malaysia) where a usd$40k<br>toyota camry is "good value" and a rx300(toyota harrier) costs usd$70k.<br>volkswagen is NOT a luxury brand here,merely a "continental car" and a passat 1.8T costs usd$50k.<br>other superb facts/prices:-(all in usd)<br>merc c200k $70k,bmw 318 & a4 1.8t $62k<br>merc e200,bmw 520 $100k<br>merc e240,bmw 525 $125-130k<br>audi a6 3.0 quattro,merc s280 $160k<br>merc s500 $250-280k<br>merc clk240,porsce boxster,bmw z4 2.5 $125k<br>bmw 645cabrio,jaguar xk8,porsche 911s $205k...<br>....hahahhahaha wat a life we have!<br>and it extends to budget mobiles too!<br>hyundai sonata $32k<br>kia rio/spectra $16k<br>hyundai santa fe $65-70k<br>kia sorento $65k<br>....the cheapest new car u can purchase is<br>a car similar in size to the original mini;<br>the perodua kancil 660cc(1992 daihatsu mira),<br>and dat still costs $8-9k!!!!!!!<br>vw in usa pricey?!?!?!?<br>i wish i could get some "pricey" vws!!!!!!<br>hell,i'd buy a phaeton 6.0 v12!<br>for usd$80k,dats GOOD value!!!!<br>and damn those CHEAP escalades!!!!<br>(yeah,see wat this country has done to me?)<br>btw,wages are similar.<br>if typical american has an income p.c of usd$34k,malaysian income p.c is usd$11k.<br>

knicks125
04-27-2005, 07:03 AM
If this coupe will be sold somewhere around 30k (USD) then I would think this would be a good investment/project to commence; otherwise i'm afraid the coupe will suffer the same fate as the Phaeton and Touareg project...<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Santeno at 5:10 PM 5/2/2005</i>

W8er
06-29-2005, 11:32 AM
Re the Passat coupe, I just e-mailed 'em to ask where I send my deposit for the R36 version. This is what I want and what VW needs. All the brand weenies can debate endlessly about whether VW can move upmarket with the legacy of its name, but for me it's about great products. By '07 I'll be ready to replace by beloved W8.

gavriil1
06-29-2005, 03:20 PM
No way Toyota is losing money on the Camry and Corolla models.

JBlair
06-29-2005, 03:28 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If this coupe will be sold somewhere around 30k (USD) then I would think this would be a good investment/project to commence; otherwise i'm afraid the coupe will suffer the same fate as the Phaeton and Touareg project...<p><br><i>Modified by Santeno at 5:10 PM 5/2/2005</i></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Whats wrong with the Touareg? Its selling well, despite its somewhat high asking price.

StevenZoz
10-12-2005, 08:00 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mattthebad</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>VW today decided to start building the long rumoured Passat Coupe in its Emden/Germany factory in 2008. No further info available yet whether it'll be 2- or 4-door coupe.<br>I found some pretty decent shops in the photoshop section. Not the real thing, but imo very good looking.<p></TD></TR></TABLE>

knicks125
11-21-2005, 02:47 PM
Autonews is reporting 140-hp diesel and 150-hp gasoline as base engines, 3.6 280hp will be optional, codenamed "CC", the Passat coupe will compete with the MB CLS, scheduled to launch in early '08.<p><A HREF="http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=55456" TARGET="_blank">http://www.autonews.com/articl...55456</A>

Comrade
11-21-2005, 02:58 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> ...the Passat coupe will compete with the MB CLS...</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Are they so dumb to make the same mistake as with the Phaeton? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/cwm13.gif" BORDER="0"> <br>VW, better sell this for less than half the price of the CLS.

Dodger
11-21-2005, 04:11 PM
I thought the exact some thing when I read that. A Passat reaching for something like a CLS, now that is a bit of a stretch. I could see maybe an Audi version doing this but not a VW.

synthesis
11-21-2005, 11:56 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Dodger</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thought the exact some thing when I read that. A Passat reaching for something like a CLS, now that is a bit of a stretch. I could see maybe an Audi version doing this but not a VW.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Actually, not a stretch at all, its already been approved. <p>Volkswagen developing coupe-style Passat to battle Mercedes CLS<br>AUTOMOBILEWOCHE<br>Posted Date: 11/21/05<br>WOLFSBURG, Germany -- Volkswagen AG is developing a coupe-style Passat that the automaker hopes will attract Mercedes-Benz customers.<p>The unnamed four-door coupe, code-named the CC, will be launched in early 2008. It will be assembled at the Emden factory in northern Germany.<p>VW hopes the coupe will compete against the Mercedes-Benz CLS.<p>The base Mercedes CLS 500, powered by a 302-hp V-8, is priced at $65,675, including destination, in the United States. A VW executive said the Passat will beat the Mercedes significantly on price.<br>To hold down costs, VW will use key modules from the Passat sedan and station wagon.<p>The coupe's base engines will be a 140-hp diesel and a 150-hp gasoline engine, but a range-topping 3.6-liter, 280-hp engine will be available. -HENNING KROGH<p>Source: Autoweek

Ascariss
11-22-2005, 07:41 AM
He meant stretch not as in not being made, he meant stretch as in it has no chance of competeting against the CLS, this thing would be too expensive again and would flop like teh phaeton.<p>if they price is around the same as the current passat, they might just sell some.

knicks125
01-22-2006, 07:30 PM
<A HREF="http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_08_Passat_Coupe.S178.A9918.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.thecarconnection.co....html</A>

DoMiNo
01-22-2006, 07:54 PM
Those chops do not scream sexy like the CLS does... looks like a plain ol' sedan, if you ask me. Some previous attempts have been edgier, I can only hope VW has the foresight to make the car uber-stylish if it's going to ask a premium for it.

SOLAR
01-22-2006, 07:54 PM
400hp turbo??? HOLY ISH

MadMac
01-23-2006, 03:09 AM
They don't have a choice except going turbo, since no 8 cyl will ever fit into the latest Passat with its "streched Golf" chassis (transversal mounted engine).<br>Not to mention the inferior Haldex AWD system (compared to TORSEN, which is used by Audi and in the previous generation Passat) they have to use with this configuration.<br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by MadMac at 2:22 AM 1/23/2006</i>

David911
09-29-2006, 07:13 AM
A new chop of this highly awaited vehicle:<p><A HREF="http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6271/2276/1600/passat-coupe.0.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://photos1.blogger.com/blo...0.jpg</A><p>Other related info:<br><A HREF="http://www.autobild.de/aktuell/meldungen/artikel.php?artikel_id=8464" TARGET="_blank">http://www.autobild.de/aktuell...=8464</A><p><A HREF="http://auto-future.blogspot.com/2006/09/2008-vw-passat-4-door-coupe.html" TARGET="_blank">http://auto-future.blogspot.co....html</A><p><A HREF="http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/99257" TARGET="_blank">http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/99257</A><p><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by David911 at 7:45 AM 9/29/2006</i>

DoMiNo
09-29-2006, 09:31 AM
Ugly. And what's more, it just looks like a run of the mill sedan.

the1
09-29-2006, 09:41 AM
It looks like a facelifted standard Passat. 'highly awaited vehicle...'? I doubt it .

mzoltarp
09-30-2006, 04:33 AM
I'm not so certain the new nose is better than the old nose, but the Passat coupe-sedan probably makes sense for Europe. Because VW doesn't have the panache of Mercedes, the Passat coupe will be seen as a wannabe in the USA. VW desperately needs a Phaeton sized car at Azera/Avalon prices for the USA.

knicks125
05-06-2007, 01:46 PM
<A HREF="http://www.egmcartech.com/2007/04/30/report-volkswagen-does-the-four-door-coupe-thing" TARGET="_blank">http://www.egmcartech.com/2007...thing</A>/

drugmirko
05-06-2007, 01:48 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><A HREF="http://www.egmcartech.com/2007/04/30/report-volkswagen-does-the-four-door-coupe-thing" TARGET="_blank">http://www.egmcartech.com/2007...thing</A>/</TD></TR></TABLE><p><br>what's that? a choped BMW 6?

CosworthKid
05-06-2007, 01:48 PM
Looks beautiful and elegant, almost Lexus like as well. It seems that will indeed be the next VW nose since its appearing on every chop and CG on the net!

mzoltarp
05-06-2007, 02:52 PM
Based on the Audi A6 says the article? There goes cost control out the window. Assuming the rendering to be accurate, that is precisely the kind of gotta have styling that a 4 or 5 cylinder 18k base Passat needs.

Professor K
05-06-2007, 04:34 PM
Supposedly this thing will have a base price slightly below the top end Passat 3.6 4Motion sedan, which is $31,000 if I'm not mistaken. I'm guessing a fully loaded CC will run around $45-50K. Why does VW need this kind of product?

mzoltarp
05-06-2007, 05:08 PM
31k loaded would be optimal. 40+k loaded is insulting and wrong.

TitanSteel
08-20-2007, 10:52 AM
Almost completely uncovered:<p><A HREF="http://www.worldcarfans.com/6070820.003/vw-passat-4-door-coupe-spied-in-clear-view" TARGET="_blank">http://www.worldcarfans.com/60...-view</A>

against the wall
08-20-2007, 11:09 AM
based on those pics I have a message for Europe: you can keep this one <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/pukeface.gif" BORDER="0">

Chris_Doane
08-20-2007, 11:12 AM
Hm, those are some Chrysler Sebring-esque doors....

Audisapien
08-20-2007, 11:16 AM
Looks much better than the normal Passat.

against the wall
08-20-2007, 11:18 AM
to me the doors look like a carbon copy of the CLS doors (the character line looks exacvtly the same) with the same sad, depressing VW doorhandles. And I just noticed it has US plates (along with the tahoe in the background) <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/crying.gif" BORDER="0">

the1
08-20-2007, 11:23 AM
I love it, but unfortunately it just looks like a cooler, more agressive Passat and not a true smokin' hot 4door Coupe like the CLS.

TitanSteel
08-20-2007, 11:24 AM
To design this car, I hear VW designers took a regular Passat, made an ice cream model of it, and stuck it in an oven for a few minutes, and did sketches of the semi-melted mass. They then sent it off to production and ate the goopy mess. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0">

the1
08-20-2007, 11:32 AM
Come on, it's not that bad. Actually, if I compare it with a CLS I now realize this VW is not too boring, it's quite nice.

the1
08-20-2007, 11:33 AM
BTW, given that VWs are pricier and pricier these days, I guess this Passat CLS fighter will cost as much as a... Jag XF. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0">

Supremus
08-20-2007, 11:51 AM
It's nice, but not enough to be a separate model. I don't really see the point of it. Specially since an MCE for the Passat is just around the corner.

the1
08-20-2007, 12:08 PM
<A HREF="http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/5-passat-coupe-spied.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://images.leftlanenews.com...d.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/4-passat-coupe-spied.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://images.leftlanenews.com...d.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/6-passat-coupe-spied.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://images.leftlanenews.com...d.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/8-passat-coupe-spied.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://images.leftlanenews.com...d.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/7-passat-coupe-spied.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://images.leftlanenews.com...d.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/2-passat-coupe-spied.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://images.leftlanenews.com...d.jpg</A><p>Bigger pics.

Tankster
08-20-2007, 12:10 PM
I was expecting something more dramatic, based on these pictures, it doesn't have the coupe like profile as the CLS. I hope it has a different rear and front design and interior to differentiate it from the passat.

the1
08-20-2007, 12:15 PM
Maybe this is the facelifted Passat. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0">

fubar
08-20-2007, 02:18 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>TitanSteel</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Almost completely uncovered:<p><A HREF="http://www.worldcarfans.com/6070820.003/vw-passat-4-door-coupe-spied-in-clear-view" TARGET="_blank">http://www.worldcarfans.com/60...-view</A></TD></TR></TABLE><p>PUT THE COVER BACK ON!!!!! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/crying.gif" BORDER="0"> This thing seems so disproportionate. Short wheelbase. Long overhangs. UGGGGHHH.

TopGear
08-20-2007, 02:56 PM
they should build a regular coupe before a 4 door one imo. its more experiance<br>

CosworthKid
08-20-2007, 04:16 PM
Holy cow...wtf? What exactly is VW's plan here? To just imitate Mercedes with a half baked effort? I am not impressed at all so far but then again i haven't been impressed with VW for over 2 decades now with the only possible exception the MkV GTi

mzoltarp
08-20-2007, 04:45 PM
This needs to be the Passat replacement. Finally a swoopy Volkswagen! Stunning! Gorgeous! They need to build it in China and send it to NA with a 2.0T for 18k base price and the 3.6 V6 with a 23k base price. With a regular Passat bumping 40k loaded, this thing will be insanely overpriced. Three steps forward, three steps back unfortunately.

against the wall
08-20-2007, 04:47 PM
*pinches mzoltarp* dreams over... you and I both know thats not gonna happen (the second part will though)

erzhik
08-20-2007, 08:23 PM
I say paint it black, give it better wheels (not that lame design) and tint the windows.. and something tells me this car would look damn good. I reserve my judgment till I see more revealing pics.

Player4
08-20-2007, 08:36 PM
seems like mercedes was the only one that got this four door coupe recipe right. <br>this is really dissapointing from VW...<p>i guess we still cant make judgements till we see it fully uncovered, but so far not so good.<br>

Reppu
08-20-2007, 11:16 PM
Ditto. VW should have had a second overnight thought about this, because it looks rushed and, as someone said, half-baked. To me, it fails as a CLS fighter because is somewhere in between a regular sedan and the MB rendition, in no one's land. VW better puts in it something else and not only the same package you can find in a Passat (most likely for less money). For the moment, looks like they will share the interior.....

hilton
08-20-2007, 11:25 PM
i personally think it looks hot

hks786
08-21-2007, 04:30 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>quattro</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i personally think it looks hot</TD></TR></TABLE><p>+1<p>Now I guess it just depends on it having a nice front and rear. I love the roofline!

turbonium959
08-21-2007, 04:46 AM
Honestly, it is no CLS. Not that bad, but not even close. Perhaps its still a bit early, but the car does not picture well from rear 3/4 view shots. However, this car's biggest flaw is the poor location for the door handles. I think they should have been either right through the crease or above the crease that goes just below the beltline of the car.

CY
08-21-2007, 04:54 AM
Looks weak and generic compared to the CLS...hope the XF claws them both though!!!<p>Will it even be "cool" to have a 4 door coupe after this thing is out..."zero ego emissions" my A$$.

the1
08-21-2007, 05:02 AM
If it will be priced somewhere between the Passat and the Phaeton I predict a sombre future for this VAGmobile. There shouldn't be a price difference of more than 4-5000euros between this and the Passat.

hks786
08-21-2007, 05:03 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CY</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Looks weak and generic compared to the CLS...hope the XF claws them both though!!!<p>Will it even be "cool" to have a 4 door coupe after this thing is out..."zero ego emissions" my A$$.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>To be honest bro, I think the XF will be the best in the class!

CosworthKid
08-21-2007, 05:06 AM
We all b*** and moan about it but the reality is VW will gain some street cred with this no matter how foul it looks compared to the gorgeous CLS. I can begin to imagine some friends of mine now, going on and on about how cool this 4-door coupe is and how VW is premium cause of it and BS. Seriously i am rapidly losing interest in the brand and i find myself looking forward to new models from almost every other European brand except VW cause they offer me nothing new, interesting or even well resolved nowadays. Just my opinion of course, i do hope when official pics surface this will turn into a stunning car <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/sheep.gif" BORDER="0">

CY
08-21-2007, 05:14 AM
Does this guarantee an Audi version or has that already been confirmed? So many 4 door coupes coming....!

drugmirko
08-21-2007, 05:17 AM
yep... I agrie. it will gain some reputation.... and I think it is the boldest VW in a while.<p>but what were they thinking putting those door handles so low?:<p><A HREF="http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/5-passat-coupe-spied.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://images.leftlanenews.com...d.jpg</A><p>who did they have in mind here... shorter persons? or tall ones, but with bad posture.... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/icon11.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> :<br>

hks786
08-21-2007, 05:22 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>drugmirko</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yep... I agrie. it will gain some reputation.... and I think it is the boldest VW in a while.<p>but what were they thinking putting those door handles so low?:<p><A HREF="http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/5-passat-coupe-spied.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://images.leftlanenews.com...d.jpg</A><p>whom did they have in mind here... shorter persons? or tall ones, but with bad posture.... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/icon11.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> :<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>wow I didnt notice the handles. That's pretty bad!

the1
08-21-2007, 05:35 AM
The car might not be something which looks like it came straight form Mars or smth, but it's still sleek and quite cool if U ask me, especially in black with a set of huge alloys on it. The only detail that will make or break this car's success is the pricing and given how thirsty VW seems lately it won't be a very good deal, probably costing as much as an E-Class, XF etc. It will give them street cred but that's about it. If they can't pitch it against cheaper premium cars like the C-Class or 3 Series in therms of pricing, they're on the wrong path.

CosworthKid
08-21-2007, 05:55 AM
I still think this could have easily been the next Passat, just like the A5 Estate (rumour) could have easily been the next A4 Avant. I see nothing radical enough in either of these cars to justify a different name or segment. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/nixweiss.gif" BORDER="0">

the1
08-21-2007, 06:08 AM
Now I'm noticing this VW is kind of similar with the new Vectra, though the Insignia (as it will be called) will be marketed as a normal sedan, cheaper than the Passat as well.

the1
08-21-2007, 01:42 PM
Other angles.<p><A HREF="http://img.auto.cz/news/img/galleries/2007-34/vwpa20_46ca8a39d134e.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://img.auto.cz/news/img/ga...e.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://img.auto.cz/news/img/galleries/2007-34/vwpa30_46ca8a3a85837.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://img.auto.cz/news/img/ga...7.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://img.auto.cz/news/img/galleries/2007-34/vwpa40_46ca8a3aabd7a.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://img.auto.cz/news/img/ga...a.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://img.auto.cz/news/img/galleries/2007-34/vwpa50_46ca8a3b77977.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://img.auto.cz/news/img/ga...7.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8784/passatcoupemulezz6.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://img401.imageshack.us/im...6.jpg</A>'<br><A HREF="http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2730/passatcoupemule1ke1.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://img504.imageshack.us/im...1.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1989/passatcoupemule2xz8.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://img504.imageshack.us/im...8.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8356/passatcoupemule3ad7.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://img442.imageshack.us/im...7.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6452/passatcoupemule4lx3.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://img442.imageshack.us/im...3.jpg</A><br><A HREF="http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8666/passatcoupemule5hf1.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://img442.imageshack.us/im...1.jpg</A>

against the wall
08-21-2007, 01:51 PM
why do i feel like the only person who cannot stand those doorhandles? they make any car look horribly sad and depressed. it mightve been better had they put the doorhandles above the crease (hidden doorhandles would be ideal though). the two-tone seats look nice though.<br>oh and nice fake B-pillar. i guess an upside is that it has pillarless doors.<br>and i found this from a few pages back: <A HREF="http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_08_Passat_Coupe.S178.A9918.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.thecarconnection.co....html</A><p>its the closest chop in the thread. itll probably lose the chrome shnoz though.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by against the wall at 5:01 PM 8/21/2007</i>

Nastka
08-21-2007, 02:20 PM
I agree with two things. Yes, the doorhandles are completely awful (looks as though they've melted their way down during hot weather testing...) and yes, the B-pillar does look a little fake in some of the pics. Besides that the only thing that I have to bemoan is the character line from the shoulder to the back. It seems to be lifted of straight from a CLS, softend, and put onto this mule.<p>One certain point of interest for me is the front, though. As far as I remember VW stated that they want to drop the Audi-like, unified grill. And this car seems like the perfect model to introduce a new, slightly altered face.

the1
08-21-2007, 02:47 PM
Small thing, this is not a mule, it's a close to production car.

against the wall
08-21-2007, 02:50 PM
yeah the B-pillar is definitely fake because its not in this pic <A HREF="http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/5-passat-coupe-spied.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://images.leftlanenews.com...d.jpg</A>

Nastka
08-21-2007, 02:55 PM
Missed that one! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0"><p>Good thinking that, on VW's part. I like coupes that miss the B in their ABC.

mzoltarp
08-21-2007, 03:23 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CosworthKid</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I still think this could have easily been the next Passat...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Amen and say it again! Especially if it were priced just as the current Passat is priced, the leap in style would begin to justify the steep price of Passat admission.

CosworthKid
08-22-2007, 03:11 AM
Yeah, the same as with the new Scirocco, they could have easily presented that as a Golf VI but noooooooo

mzoltarp
08-22-2007, 04:31 AM
I do think that if VW embraced some swoopy and daring styling that people would balk less when they see the sticker. That would be my strategy for NA at least. If Europe sees the need for a Passat and a Passat coupe then sell them side by side. In NA, I suspect the Passat coupe will just steal sales from the Passat.

the1
08-22-2007, 05:03 AM
If this would have been the new Passat and the Scirocco the new Golf, than VW could have been a king of style in Europe, with 2 mainstream cars with swoopy lines and sporty details. Their sales could have boomed and everyone would have hailed VW as the new trendsetter in therms of design. But, no, instead they preffer to charge more for these better looking variants of the Passat and Golf for getting more profit, but I reckon they could have benefited even more by marketing these 2 good looking models as the Golf and Passat replacements.

mzoltarp
08-22-2007, 05:31 AM
I do wonder what the Chinese VW for NA will be given that there has been some chatter about it being a Passat-based vehicle. Could it be that VW is going to merge the Jetta and Passat into one Camry-fighting vehicle and slot something under it? That would certainly make the Passat coupe not be redundant.

Horizon
08-22-2007, 05:21 PM
is this really supposed to be a 4 door coupe in the merc CLS fashion ? <br>coz really it just looks like a sedan with a moderately steeply raked back to me.<br>nothing like the effect the CLS had when it came out.<br>quite pointless imho.

Professor K
08-22-2007, 07:01 PM
If VW prices this thing right, this can be a car that I may consider highly in 09' when I plan on buying a new car. Hopefully they can manufacture these in Mexico or China to keep the costs down low. I don't think that VW can afford to have another Phaeton success story (sarcasm) in the United States.

Vltava
08-22-2007, 09:49 PM
Is it just me or is the whole thickness of pillars and roof/shallowness of windows ratio just too far off to make this desirable? I wish VW's had gone forward with that reported 5-door Passat. That might have been pretty and practical.

AllodoxaphobicJay
08-23-2007, 12:13 AM
Turns out the Dodge Stratus sedan was actually a 'coupe' all along.<p>Who would have guessed...

Professor K
08-23-2007, 12:45 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>AllodoxaphobicJay</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Turns out the Dodge Stratus sedan was actually a 'coupe' all along.<p>Who would have guessed...</TD></TR></TABLE> <p><IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0">

Rune2ksix
09-03-2007, 01:33 PM
Other Pics from Auto Zeitung.<p><A HREF="http://autozeitung.de/online/render.php?render=0071317&size" TARGET="_blank">http://autozeitung.de/online/r...&size</A>=<p>click on "weiter" to contiune the picture series.

63Bonneville
09-03-2007, 01:48 PM
I'm not certain if this Passat sedan/coupe is supposed to debut at Frankfurt soon coming up, or at Geneva in 2008, I read conflicting reports. <p>Looks good, a lesser-cost alternative to the Benz CLS, lets hope it offers the 300hp V6 to distinguish it from garden-variety Passats. Also, it is proportioned differently from a CLS being is front-drive or front-drive biased awd, where you can see the telltale signs in it's silhouette of a longer front overhang, front wheels pushed back close to the front doors and the windshield base even with the front wheel centers.

Horizon
09-03-2007, 02:08 PM
its like they are trying to replace the phaeton but with another name plate and a diferent concept.<p>

against the wall
09-03-2007, 02:25 PM
i dont know if anyone pointed it out but this reminds me of the dodge intrepid. that side profile is heinous.

autonutt
09-03-2007, 05:48 PM
VW needed to make this dramatically different than the Passat, or just let it be a 2-door.. and the unfortunate truth is that it is nowhere near as unique or dramatic as the CLS, and instead resembles nothing more than a prev-gen Sebring/Stratus or Intrepid/300M in profile! Seeing it next to a Jeep Wrangler just amplifies the comparison.<p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0"><br>

StephenKHone
09-03-2007, 06:15 PM
Hmmm? Are you sure that B pillar is fake? The car seems to have frameless glass on all of the doors, (although I'm not sure how that rear quarter window workks?) but I'd say the B pillar is real. The 95 Olds Aurora had the same arrangement. Does the glass go over the B post? How do they open the doors on the test car if the glass has a fake B pillar over them? I'm confused lol!

against the wall
09-03-2007, 06:42 PM
there are pics of the car with its windows rolled down and there is no b pillar, only the one inside the car(http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/5-passat-coupe-spied.jpg). and pics of the car with the windows up have one, thats how i know.

against the wall
09-03-2007, 09:24 PM
frankly i really dont care much anymore. what we see of the car does nothing for me. im going to go look at a cls now.

caarmike
09-04-2007, 05:26 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> instead resembles nothing more than a prev-gen Sebring/Stratus or Intrepid/300M in profile! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0"><br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>There are far worse things that could happen, those were good looking cars. I like how the Passat takes the old Chrysler design ethic one step further with extreme windshield and roof angles.

StephenKHone
09-04-2007, 05:43 PM
That's for the link, but I'm still confused because windows up or down all of the cars appear to have a B pillar. Is the glass supposed to cover the B post on the production version with front and rear door glass butting together? I've seen a drawing in a German car mag that shows the front and rear door glass on top of the B post but that is an artists rendering.

CosworthKid
09-07-2007, 02:47 AM
Instead of the usual AutoBild PDF cover they have now opted for a info video about what the issue will include. It has an undisguised image of the Passat Coupe! I don't know if it is choped or an actual un camoed car but check it out:<p><A HREF="http://www.autobild.de/mmg/mm_video_415921.html?tab=1" TARGET="_blank">http://www.autobild.de/mmg/mm_...tab=1</A><p>looking at it again it seems like under the Passat image it says "Huckfeldt" so it must be a chop but it is definitely spot on <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">

hks786
09-07-2007, 03:23 AM
Yep it says Huckfeldt. It is accurate I'd say though. Here it is:<p><IMG SRC="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w239/J78628/Untitled-1-3.jpg" BORDER="0">

hks786
09-07-2007, 03:24 AM
Oh look, it seems to have a row of LEDs like the A6...

CosworthKid
09-07-2007, 03:57 AM
Is it just me or does the front has equal amounts of Mazda and next Insignia design hints?

mzoltarp
09-07-2007, 04:41 AM
Funny how the rendering of it makes it look so drab and boring. I find it to be a huge let down from what I had hoped the camo was hiding. If that's the "new" corproate face, it's no different from the corporate face of VW in the past. It looks like a perfect Camry/Accord/Sonata competitor but instead it will likely cost as much as two entry level Sonatas. It definitely does not have the look to pull of 40K or more. This is a great looking 20-30k car.

Rune2ksix
09-08-2007, 09:17 AM
--&gt; Ive photographed the sites from AutoBild. Klick on the links.<br>Front/side - <A HREF="http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe1.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe1.jpg</A><br>Front/side (100% crop) - <A HREF="http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe2.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe2.jpg</A><br>Back - <A HREF="http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe3.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe3.jpg</A><br>

DoMiNo
09-08-2007, 09:28 AM
What the... it's a 607 with a Passat front and some C-class along the side to the rear. No thanks. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0">

silver-arrow
09-08-2007, 10:09 AM
Do they honestly believe that this car can compete the CLS or even other coupe-like saloons like the XF? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0">

63Bonneville
09-08-2007, 10:32 AM
It's essentially a lower cost answer to a CLS-type car. There will be other CLS competitors debuting which will also be like it or better. I still feel it's in the right direction, it has more spice and image than a conventional sedan.

CosworthKid
09-08-2007, 02:12 PM
I don't even see any Coupe in it??!!! Honestly this is just a VW saloon car with some Merc style side creases, i wouldn't even think it looks like a CLS. Way to boring if those chops are anything close to the real thing

Ascariss
09-08-2007, 03:47 PM
thanks for the pics rune<p>i wouldn't say the car sucks, but it isn't amazing either.

silver-arrow
09-08-2007, 05:52 PM
I can't say this is a 4-door coupe....this is just a sportier passat...

scorpio14
09-08-2007, 07:50 PM
Yeah i hope they dont actually call it a Passat Coupe... rather another name without the Passat or the Coupe attached to it.<p>Its a decent looks car... i like it, but nuthin great

silver-arrow
09-09-2007, 04:28 AM
I believe it would be great if this was just the new Passat....just that!

mzoltarp
09-09-2007, 05:03 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>silver-arrow</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I believe it would be great if this was just the new Passat....just that!</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Ding, ding, ding! Correct answer. I'd definitely want the coupe over a Passat which is so forgettable looking.

scorpio14
09-09-2007, 05:29 AM
Well that would be even better... but suxs it aint gonna happen... <p>Wonder what are the chances that VW are planning to make a proper 2-door coupe version of this car... thatd be cool... then a convertible version.

mzoltarp
09-09-2007, 05:46 AM
Chances could be quite good given that VW's plan is to create a bunch of niche vehicles instead of convincing mainstream vehicles.

silver-arrow
09-09-2007, 05:51 AM
If they name this car "Passat Coupe" or "Passat 4door Coupe" that means that its going to be sold in a much higher price. A good example is the CLS...an overpriced E-Class...<br>The big difference is that someone who buys a big Mercedes is willing to pay 10k more to get a better/sportier looking car. Who is going to pay more to buy an overpriced passat?

CosworthKid
09-09-2007, 06:31 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chances could be quite good given that VW's plan is to create a bunch of niche vehicles instead of convincing mainstream vehicles.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>The Passat name distills as much emotion to the buyer as pair of army boots to me (ironic name then). I cannot see any reason for it to spawn a 2-door coupe or a convertible unless they go the Audi A5 way and Eos and give those variants a non-Passat moniker. Besides, knowing VW's way of doing business there is no way they will leave the A5 as an Audi only product. So they will probably use the same common sense and create a new VW coupe and convertible based on the A5. But as far as the Passat branding this 4-door coupe is as good or as bad as it gets in my humble opinion

CosworthKid
09-09-2007, 06:34 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>silver-arrow</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If they name this car "Passat Coupe" or "Passat 4door Coupe" that means that its going to be sold in a much higher price. A good example is the CLS...an overpriced E-Class...<br>The big difference is that someone who buys a big Mercedes is willing to pay 10k more to get a better/sportier looking car. Who is going to pay more to buy an overpriced passat?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>The CLS isn't just a different looking E though, it does pack a lot more emotion in both it's driving and styling. So in those respects it is miles different from the E-Class. I do agree the price difference is still un justified but for a low volume niche car it is to be expected. This Passat won't be able to pull off the same trick looking like that <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>So within the next couple of years VW will offer us a slightly more sporty looking Passat with an inflated price tag and the silly coupe naming, a Scirocco successor which is no much more coupe than the Golf and a new Golf which is neither new under the skin nor will look all that different from the V and let us not forget the dull Tiguan..hmmmm

mzoltarp
09-09-2007, 06:50 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CosworthKid</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...I cannot see any reason for it to spawn a 2-door coupe or a convertible unless they go the Audi A5 way and Eos and give those variants a non-Passat moniker. Besides, knowing VW's way of doing business there is no way they will leave the A5 as an Audi only product. So they will probably use the same common sense and create a new VW coupe and convertible based on the A5. But as far as the Passat branding this 4-door coupe is as good or as bad as it gets in my humble opinion </TD></TR></TABLE><p>As long as they continue to embrace the notion that VW is to Mercedes as Audi is to BMW and not VW is to Toyota as Audi is to BMW/MB we will have these silly product overlaps.<p>

CosworthKid
09-09-2007, 08:15 AM
Then let them lost a crap load of money and perhaps then they will see to reason <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/1orglaugh.gif" BORDER="0">

autonutt
09-09-2007, 10:11 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>As long as they continue to embrace the notion that VW is to Mercedes as Audi is to BMW and not VW is to Toyota as Audi is to BMW/MB we will have these silly product overlaps.<p></TD></TR></TABLE><p>You, sir, are right on the money. VWoA already does realize this, and are battling VAG constantly to provide products to the NA market that can compete in both pricing and content with Honda and Toyota.<br>As long as the home office keeps believing they are in a different league, though, the bottom line will continue to suffer.<br>

Ark
09-10-2007, 12:56 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Rune2ksix</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">--&gt; Ive photographed the sites from AutoBild. Klick on the links.<br>Front/side - <A HREF="http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe1.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe1.jpg</A><br>Front/side (100% crop) - <A HREF="http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe2.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe2.jpg</A><br>Back - <A HREF="http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe3.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://s201595530.online.de/passatcoupe3.jpg</A><br></TD></TR></TABLE><br>The side profile looks similar to the recently introduced C-Class...

Puffhead
09-21-2007, 09:36 AM
<IMG SRC="http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/Puffhead78/37821942_df5501f532.jpg" BORDER="0"><br>I don't really like the rear view of this chop...the bubble-shaped rear window and drop-shaped tail lights, the proportions...<br>why does it remind me so much of this?:<br><IMG SRC="http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/Puffhead78/newtaurusrear.400x300.jpg" BORDER="0">

CosworthKid
09-21-2007, 10:30 AM
Don't have a clue!lol<br>To me it doesn't look like a Taurus at all but, judging from those chops, the front seems like a cross between a Phaeton and and a host of new models coming out soon such as the new Mazda6 and the Opel Insignia. So perhaps it is just a new design trend which is used by a few makers now but still, it should look a bit sharper and more distinct i think like the CLS manages to. The rear end on the other hand seems to have familiar VW themes applied on a BMW-esque rear end...don't know why it rings BMW to me but i guess each person views it differently, like it reminded u of the Taurus etc. <p>Out of curiosity will Volkswagen really name this the Passat Coupe or has anyone else heard something different?

Rune2ksix
09-21-2007, 11:09 AM
No, not really.<br>All me known german car sources are calling it simple Passat "coup" .

Horizon
09-21-2007, 04:56 PM
They can't possibly call it a passat coupe when it still has foor doors just like the regular passat.doesnt make (marketing) sense.

mzoltarp
09-22-2007, 05:29 AM
It does look like that Taurus in the tail lights, but it looks more like the Mercury Sable from the same era in the greenhouse to tail area. I still see yet another VW styling thud.

Rune2ksix
09-23-2007, 03:59 AM
Great Video capture of the Passat Coup at edmunds.com<p><A HREF="http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=122656?tid=edmunds.il.futurelanding.late stnews..1" TARGET="_blank">http://www.edmunds.com/insidel...ws..1</A><p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">

mzoltarp
09-23-2007, 05:36 AM
It definitely looks better in motion than it does in still shots.

Comrade
09-23-2007, 11:12 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It definitely looks better in motion than it does in still shots.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>It's camouflaged. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/sheep.gif" BORDER="0">

mzoltarp
09-23-2007, 11:37 AM
Um, yeah its camoed, but the proportions are READILY apparent and it looks better in motion than the still shots of the camoed car.

Horizon
09-23-2007, 01:40 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Comrade</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>It's camouflaged. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/sheep.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>LOL.<br>What did u mean ?

Horizon
09-23-2007, 01:48 PM
<B> Um, yeah its camoed, but the proportions are READILY apparent and it looks better in motion than the still shots of the camoed car. </B><p><br>LOL Too.

Comrade
09-23-2007, 01:56 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Horizon</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>LOL.<br>What did u mean ?</TD></TR></TABLE><br>I just thought it was too early to go into determining whether it looks better while moving or standing because it's a somewhat specific characteristic and we're still not able to see a lot of the details. It's like trying to determine if a sheep is fat or skinny by looking at it with soo much hair. <p>Edit: But perhaps not. I don't know. When a car has a lot of horizontally flowing lines, the lines embrace movement. Maybe the front and rear have some nice details that you can't spot when the car drives by really fast. I think the Passat, also, looks better when moving.

Horizon
09-23-2007, 02:19 PM
oh,ok, thought u were pointing to the really obvious. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/bow.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/CSS/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>I agree, we cant yet see what might be some fine details but i do prefer it on the latest vid. i can see a bit more of the creases and proportions and i find it better than on the last pics where it looked a bit "flat".<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Horizon at 10:34 PM 9/23/2007</i>

mzoltarp
09-23-2007, 06:29 PM
The fine details will not mask the fact that this would be a great 20-30K Passat replacement and not a 35K+ botique car.

kintsintsu
09-23-2007, 09:46 PM
Is anyone willing to sign a petition preventing car manufacturers from calling four door saloons coupés? <p>Looking back, the chryslers LHX cars were "coupés" and we didn't even realize it, lol!

Parmenio
10-02-2007, 11:39 PM
<IMG SRC="http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/2007/10/2/9071002.007/9071002.007.Mini5L.jpg" BORDER="0"> <p>one more CGI<br>I think a lil more stylish enstead of Huckfeldt`s<p>but will look better in showroom anyway

mzoltarp
10-03-2007, 05:08 AM
Looks great for an Accord competitor. Looks like another Phaeton fiasco (i.e. a great product if it were sold for half the money but an ignored product in the price range in which it is placed). This or a BMW 3...BMW! This or an IS350...IS350. This or a Mercedes C...C. etc.

DoMiNo
10-03-2007, 08:06 AM
How many ways can one person say the same thing? <p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>Solution:<br>1) Price the Jetta at 15-22k<br>2) Price the Passat at 20-30k<br>3) Create a Passat Plus with longer wheelbase and distinctive styling for 35-40k<br>4) Delete major technology and weight from the Phaeton and price it at 40-50k <br>It's not that VW has to be bargain basement in their pricing, but they need to be somewhere near land and not in the thin air of the atmosphere. <br>VW also desperately needs a real pickup, and a viable minivan. Yet what we are hearing from VW is more niche vehicles. Niche vehicles are great if you're prepared to replace them quickly with new sheetmetal when the niche vehicle's novelty wears off. The New Beetle is a case in point. It's been allowed to get long in tooth. A VR6 RSi should have been unleashed in the US 5 years ago. <br>The Passat Coupe will be another glorious failure.<br>________<p>VW will continue to stumble with niche vehicles that have a short popularity life instead of producing: <br>a Corolla/Civic fighter (Jetta is positioned wrong)<br>an Accord/Camry fighter (Passat is positioned wrong)<br>an Avalon/Azera fighter<br>a minivan<br>a pickup<br>an Explorer fighter (Toaureg is positioned wrong V6 Toauregs list at 45k at the local dealer when they need to be 30k)<br>a hybrid fuel miser vehicle (no diesels. The Europeans may adore diesels but the Yanks hate them) <br>Audi is their premium brand. Thus the Phaeton was a huge face plant for VW. If VW is going after Mercedes, they are dead in the USA. They need to go after Toyota/Honda because they are the true leaders for engineering top-notch cars at prices that Joe Schmo can afford and JD Power would note that their quality and reliability are usually as good or better than any of the German brands.<p>________<p>I'd build the Passat there and try to bring down the price at the dealer, but VW hasn't called me lately for advice. :)<p>________<p>Having owned Volkswagens, I say that VW ABSOLUTELY MUST go into mainstream markets and compete with the leaders Honda and Toyota. Honda, and to a lesser extent, Toyota have rabid followers in the high spending import tuner crowd.<p>________<p>The Passat coupe shpuld be a one-price car. If it shows up loaded for 30-32k and it thrown against the near Luxury vehicles (Lexus ES, Acura TL) it could do well. That means that the Passat must be positioned below it in the Camry range. VW will bring the Passat coupe to market at 40k or higher just watch. Then they will be mystified as to why it is not selling well.<p>________<p>VW just thinks it can price its cars in Mercedes territory and that shazam! people will see them as equals. It was noted that the Phaeton is a great car. Yes it is! So what? It's a 70-100k Volkswagen. Dumb move for marketing especially with the Audi A8 in the fold! <br>VW's plan to do niche vehicles is also dumb. Niche vehicles have a notoriously short shelf life. Once the hype dies, sales die. This assumes that VW will be able to send a bevy of gotta-have niche vehicles out. That's debatable.<p>________<p>I'm not so certain the new nose is better than the old nose, but the Passat coupe-sedan probably makes sense for Europe. Because VW doesn't have the panache of Mercedes, the Passat coupe will be seen as a wannabe in the USA. VW desperately needs a Phaeton sized car at Azera/Avalon prices for the USA.<p>________<p>31k loaded would be optimal. 40+k loaded is insulting and wrong.<p>________<p>This needs to be the Passat replacement. Finally a swoopy Volkswagen! Stunning! Gorgeous! They need to build it in China and send it to NA with a 2.0T for 18k base price and the 3.6 V6 with a 23k base price. With a regular Passat bumping 40k loaded, this thing will be insanely overpriced. Three steps forward, three steps back unfortunately.<p>________<p>Amen and say it again! Especially if it were priced just as the current Passat is priced, the leap in style would begin to justify the steep price of Passat admission. <p>________<p>I do wonder what the Chinese VW for NA will be given that there has been some chatter about it being a Passat-based vehicle. Could it be that VW is going to merge the Jetta and Passat into one Camry-fighting vehicle and slot something under it? That would certainly make the Passat coupe not be redundant.<p>________<p>Chances could be quite good given that VW's plan is to create a bunch of niche vehicles instead of convincing mainstream vehicles.<p>________<p>As long as they continue to embrace the notion that VW is to Mercedes as Audi is to BMW and not VW is to Toyota as Audi is to BMW/MB we will have these silly product overlaps.<p>________<p>The fine details will not mask the fact that this would be a great 20-30K Passat replacement and not a 35K+ botique car.<p>________<p>Looks great for an Accord competitor. Looks like another Phaeton fiasco (i.e. a great product if it were sold for half the money but an ignored product in the price range in which it is placed). This or a BMW 3...BMW! This or an IS350...IS350. This or a Mercedes C...C. etc.<p>________<p>Funny how the rendering of it makes it look so drab and boring. I find it to be a huge let down from what I had hoped the camo was hiding. If that's the "new" corproate face, it's no different from the corporate face of VW in the past. It looks like a perfect Camry/Accord/Sonata competitor but instead it will likely cost as much as two entry level Sonatas. It definitely does not have the look to pull of 40K or more. This is a great looking 20-30k car.<br></TD></TR></TABLE><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by DoMiNo at 9:19 AM 10/3/2007</i>

Horizon
10-03-2007, 02:16 PM
Ahem.....<p>*<I> Loud bangs, crashing plates,........loud bangs, crashing plates </I>*<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Horizon at 10:27 PM 10/3/2007</i>

Comrade
10-03-2007, 05:08 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>DoMiNo</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How many ways can one person say the same thing? <br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>All that requires them to build cheaper cars. It's not like they can simlpy <I>choose</I> to price it lower by a big margin. VW builds cars for the European market and there is a clear line between Toyota's and VW's perceived quality. I saw a Touareg today, and if you told me it cost 70K, I'd definitely believe it. I don't think you can tell VW to price the Passat, the way it is now, for as much as a Camry, especially with those ridiculous  to $ exchange rates.

mzoltarp
10-03-2007, 08:19 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>DoMiNo</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How many ways can one person say the same thing? <br><i>Modified by DoMiNo at 9:19 AM 10/3/2007</i></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Do you feel better now that you have that off your chest?

DoMiNo
10-03-2007, 08:40 PM
Immensely.

CosworthKid
10-12-2007, 04:55 AM
Another guess, as posted on the hollywoodextra. actual source is not mentioned<p> <A HREF="http://bp2.blogger.com/_XEEIzU0UA1M/Rw0JmMFTr0I/AAAAAAAADLI/o4u6o6H2sKs/s1600/44903_300%5B1%5D.jpg" TARGET="_blank">http://bp2.blogger.com/_XEEIzU...D.jpg</A>

mzoltarp
10-12-2007, 06:45 PM
Kinda strange looking. The almost egg crate grille look is distracting.