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View Full Version : Sonata VS. the NEXT Camry?


HondaTech
05-13-2005, 04:31 AM
If the Sonata is getting released by the end of May, it may have a short honeymoon of only 8 and half month.<p>Here's why.<p>Found this article on Cheers and Gears by some one named sciguy0504<p>Bloomberg<p>May 12 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp., the world's second- largest automaker, is speeding the release of its next Camry sedan by at least six months, aiming to keep it the best-selling U.S. car, three industry analysts familiar with the company's plans said. <p>The 2007 Camry should arrive at dealers as early as February 2006, said analyst Jim Hall, with AutoPacific Inc., basing his comments on talks with Toyota. That would bring the new model to market 4 1/2 years after the current edition's release. Toyota has redesigned the Camry every five years since 1986 and put it on sale around early September each time. <p>``Shortening the product cycle is one of the ways we can invest in having a more-desirable product,'' said Jim Press, Toyota's chief operating officer in the U.S., in an interview yesterday. Press declined to comment on Camry directly. ``One of our philosophies is to change a car before it gets old.'' <p>The Camry has battled Honda Motor Co.'s Accord to remain the top-selling car in the U.S. in seven of the past eight years. The model, which Press called Toyota's ``money car,'' contributed 21 percent of the 2.06 million autos Toyota sold in the U.S. in 2004. <p>Camry sales, including two-door Solara models, rose 6.3 percent to 138,939 this year through April, according to Autodata Corp. of Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey. The Accord fell 1.6 percent to 112,606. <p>Moving the new model's release to early 2006 will boost Camry sales by mid-year, said Joe Langley, an analyst at CSM Worldwide Inc., based in Farmington Hills, Michigan. said. <p>``It will give them a real head start because production will be fully ramped up in time for the spring and summer selling season,'' Langley said. ``There's no reason to stick to a traditional release schedule anymore. When things are ready, they're ready.'' <p>Hybrid Version <p>Camry will also be the first U.S.-built Toyota gasoline- electric hybrid, according to Hall, Langley and Catherine Madden, who forecasts auto production plans for Global Insight Inc. in Lexington, Massachusetts. The analysts based their information on discussions with Toyota and suppliers to the Georgetown, Kentucky, plant that builds the car. <p>Toyota has said it will eventually offer hybrid drives in all its top-selling models. It wants to build on the lead it holds in hybrid sales of Prius cars and add a direct competitor to Honda Motor Co.'s gasoline-electric Accord, which went on sale in 2004, Hall said. <p>``There's some competitive pressure to get a hybrid Camry into the market soon,'' said Hall, who is based in Southfield, Michigan. <p>``Camry is a natural next step, but we haven't made any decisions,'' on selling a hybrid version, said John Hanson, a spokesman for Toyota's U.S. sales unit in Torrance, California. Toyota is based in Toyota City, Japan. <p>``The midsize-sedan segment is moving in that direction, so it would be logical to offer a hybrid Camry,'' said CSM's Langley. He expects that version to go on sale in mid to late 2006. <p>Kentucky Incentives <p>In addition to the hybrid Accord, Nissan Motor Co. plans to add a gasoline-electric Altima sedan in the U.S. in 2006. Ford Motor Co., which sells hybrid Escape sport-utility vehicles, has said it will sell hybrid versions of its Fusion and Mercury Milan sedans by 2008. <p>To encourage Toyota to build hybrids in Kentucky the state in March passed incentives under an ``environmental stewardship program.'' It included tax incentives for equipment and training workers to make such products. Carla Blanton, a spokesman for Governor Ernie Fletcher, wouldn't confirm whether he will meet with Toyota officials during a visit to Japan next week. <p>The Camry has been redesigned four times since going on sale in the U.S. February 1983. Restyled versions arrived in August 1986, September 1991, September 1996 and August 2001, Toyota spokeswoman Allison Takahashi said. <p>Toyota's U.S. shares fell $1.53 to $71.88 at 4:01 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. They have fallen 12 percent this year.

mzoltarp
05-13-2005, 05:39 AM
My money is on the Hyundai which will still carry a prive advantage. The Camry will outsell the Sonata for certain, BUT we will see the gap closing. That will be Hyundai's measure of success.

taskbearer
05-13-2005, 08:50 AM
Talk of market sensitivity, no other car maker is as market sensitive as toyota they produce cars according to the shifting perspectives of the public. No wonder they're where they're at. VW and GM should be taking lessons right now.

knicks125
05-13-2005, 09:23 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My money is on the Hyundai which will still carry a prive advantage. The Camry will outsell the Sonata for certain, BUT we will see the gap closing. That will be Hyundai's measure of success.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Despite currently driving a Toyota, I agree with mzoltarp, certaintly the new Sonata won't beat the Camry but the gap will be closing. Fairly soon, I will have both a Toyota and my first Hyundai, two of the most reliable cars out there <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">

nismo
05-13-2005, 10:42 AM
Toyota is definately a smart company. Honda should release the 2006 Accord face-lift early since their sales are slagging, but I guess they are still doing ok so they don't have to rush.<p>One important thing to think about is SUV sales are sliding and alot of people are switching back to cars so Camry sales(along with probably all mid-size sedans) will rise. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">

Naga Royal Guard
05-13-2005, 11:37 AM
what a bull**** article - maybe some journalists should read the garbage they write

the cheddar
05-13-2005, 01:10 PM
Please explain Naga. I think this is a very, very important development and shows how Toyota is a "market maker." By shortening their product cycle, eveyone else has to struggle to keep up.<p>

Mindless T
05-13-2005, 05:36 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Despite currently driving a Toyota, I agree with mzoltarp, certaintly the new Sonata won't beat the Camry but the gap will be closing. Fairly soon, I will have both a Toyota and my first Hyundai, two of the most reliable cars out there <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><br>How is Hyundai reliable? It certainly somewhat but comparing it to a Toyota is "a little" over the top...

Dodger
05-13-2005, 06:18 PM
Not really, you should do some research. Hyundai is basically right there with Toyota.

anonms
05-13-2005, 09:04 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Dodger</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not really, you should do some research. Hyundai is basically right there with Toyota.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>True, true. <p>Like GM and Ford, the puclic perception of Hyundai seems to be its biggest obstacle, but, unlike for GM and for Ford, Hyundai's public image seems to be improving.

mzoltarp
05-14-2005, 05:51 AM
Try JD Power and associates for the data.

Flagship
05-14-2005, 10:10 AM
The Sonata has a better J.D Power score than the Camry....<br>But when you make over 100,000 Camry's a year quality levels start to decrease.

knicks125
05-14-2005, 12:32 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>the cheddar</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Please explain Naga. I think this is a very, very important development and shows how Toyota is a "market maker." By shortening their product cycle, eveyone else has to struggle to keep up.<p></TD></TR></TABLE><p>While this article makes no mention of the Sonata, midsize sedan makers are paying close attention at the new Sonata and the increase of competition in this segment. Perhaps Naga's post means the Toyota's cycle shortening may not be everyone else struggle to keep up with Toyota, rather, Toyota's response to keep its products competitive. Just a thought and a guess...<p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif" BORDER="0">

anonms
05-14-2005, 01:03 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Flagship GT</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Sonata has a better J.D Power score than the Camry....<br>But when you make over 100,000 Camry's a year quality levels start to decrease. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Not really. Remember that JD Power's score is derived from survey results, which is based on perception. With Toyota hyped the way they are, people expect more, but in many cases, they probably expect too much and therefore have a tendency to get naggy about their car that doesn't match up with the hype (I have yet to experience "vault-like silence" and "bump-free ride"... ). Meanwhile, people who buy Hyundais usually have a poor perception but are so pleased with what they've bought that they don't mind any minor issues.<p>It's all perception and psychology. These surveys are inaccurate judgements of actual quality and reliability-- firmer suspention tuning and poor fuel economy are among the ridiculous things considered as quality defects.<p>I'm not saying Hyundais are bad, I'm just saying JD Power sucks.

knicks125
05-14-2005, 01:08 PM
I see exactly what you are saying and I agree...<p>But, JD Power and other relevant are about the best results you can get, as far as a large enough sample is concerned. Many other industry tests are either skewed or biased, JD Power is by far the best.<p>Nothing is perfect, and you can't expect everything to be perfection...

rman5001
05-14-2005, 08:47 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I see exactly what you are saying and I agree...<p>But, JD Power and other relevant are about the best results you can get, as far as a large enough sample is concerned. Many other industry tests are either skewed or biased, JD Power is by far the best.<p>Nothing is perfect, and you can't expect everything to be perfection...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>The JDP survey that is quoted in the commercials (at least in Canada) is the IQS which only reflects the first few months of service, a measure of initial quality not reliability.<p>In addition, while JDP is a good survey in many respects (statistically sound, good sample size, comprehensive questions) it is often the misused by advertisers and marketing people.

rman5001
05-14-2005, 08:49 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Flagship GT</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Sonata has a better J.D Power score than the Camry....<br>But when you make over 100,000 Camry's a year quality levels start to decrease. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>How does quality decrease with volume? The opposite is more likely the case. If you have a high volume vehicle, you can invest more in new machinery, tooling, development, components etc.... as you can spread your investment over a greater number of vehicles.<p>The only way quality decreases if you are running your plant (and suppliers) over capacity working overtime and stretching your assets to the limit.

mzoltarp
05-15-2005, 06:01 AM
Actually you are wrong iHug. The JD Power information was based on the reliability of the Hyundai Sonata over a 3 year period.

knicks125
05-15-2005, 10:11 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>rman5001</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>The JDP survey that is quoted in the commercials (at least in Canada) is the IQS which only reflects the first few months of service, a measure of initial quality not reliability.<p>In addition, while JDP is a good survey in many respects (statistically sound, good sample size, comprehensive questions) it is often the misused by advertisers and marketing people.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>The whole point of commercials (it's all about the marketing). When was the last time you saw car commercials that said "our cars are not good at all..."<p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif" BORDER="0">

anonms
05-15-2005, 11:17 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually you are wrong iHug. The JD Power information was based on the reliability of the Hyundai Sonata over a 3 year period.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>There are two surveys-- a 6-month survey and a 3-year survey.<p>Both aren't accurate indicators, however. As much as I hate Hummers, they are not as crappy as JD's surveys indicate-- idiots keep complaining about the horrible fuel economy that they should've known about beforehand. And Scions aren't crappy at all-- old geezers can't stand the firmer suspention tuning (that leads to an un-Toyota-like bumpy ride) and don't think theair conditioning operates fast enough. <p>The survey, to me, is essentially an pooprtunity for people to be idiotically picky.

knicks125
05-15-2005, 01:20 PM
<A HREF="http://www.detnews.com/2005/specialreport/0505/15/A01-182019.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.detnews.com/2005/sp...9.htm</A> - good article to read <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">

nismo
05-15-2005, 02:54 PM
Thats a good read. Hyundai is serious and I commend them for how much they've achieved in so little time... <p>I don't like that article about US backlash on Imports though... I hope people would not be ignorant and stop buying imports or hate on them. A good product is a good product and thats how it should be....

spwolf
05-15-2005, 03:12 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I see exactly what you are saying and I agree...<p>But, JD Power and other relevant are about the best results you can get, as far as a large enough sample is concerned. Many other industry tests are either skewed or biased, JD Power is by far the best.<p>Nothing is perfect, and you can't expect everything to be perfection...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>now, the question is do you think JD Power's ICS (initial 90 day complaints) test is the greatest - which is where Hyundai scored well, or JD Power's 3 yr Reliability tests which is where Hyundai was one of the worst ;-).<p>As mentioned before, Sonata is an fine car and with price advantage it will sell well as it is much better car than before, so thats an no brainer - it will be an sucess for hyundai for sure.<p>One of the problems I see in the future for Hyundai is that they seem to be pretty bullish, which I hope does not mean that they are getting out of touch with reality. I read an article (Autoweek probably) where one of the top Hyundai execs boasting how Hyundai is better quality than Toyota, Sonata better car than competition, and it is only perception that needs to be improving. Thats just very ignorant - one of the best qualities of Toyota is that they are on top of what is happening around them and are good with responding. You never hear any kind of similar statements from Toyota - all you can hear from them is: "we have still much to learn, and many areas where we can improve". Thats attitude that anyone could use.<p>Hyundai is positioning themselves to be competition/alternative to Toyota. Time will tell how wise was that.<p>Camry's immediate competition is Accord, and big 3 vehicles in similar segment. Sonata sells 4x less than Camry, so with it being an awesome success, it would take an decade for it to actually surpass Camry in sales.<p>As someone else mentioned, gas prices are selling more Camry's (and Corollas) than ever before, so Camry sales are at highest levels in the history right now. <p>This just shows how competitive Toyota is or rather how competitive they are trying to be.

knicks125
05-15-2005, 06:29 PM
Bias aside, I would have to say I'd much prefer 3 year more than IQS (90 days).<p>That said, I can't help being biased since I own a Toyota, a Honda (Acura), and soon a Hyundai, so I guess I want them all to do well <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">

anonms
05-15-2005, 06:54 PM
I hope people start a domestic backlash. j/k. But really-- while the domestics are laying-off Americans and diverting production to China, the imports are expanding in America. Sure, the money goes to Asia and not America, but it's the Asians that are increasing the number of Americans on their payroll.

knicks125
05-15-2005, 06:58 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>iHug Trees</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sure, the money goes to Asia and not America, but it's the Asians that are increasing the number of Americans on their payroll.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>That is very true...they all have contributed to the turn around of the US economy from the drought a very years gao. The cities with these auto plants have to be thankful for them being there...<p>While we are talking about JD Power, 2005 TQS came out: <A HREF="http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?DID=RSS&n=175&sid=175&article=8617" TARGET="_blank">http://www.thecarconnection.co...=8617</A> - <B>BMW top brand; Nissan, GM, Hyundai also big winners in new quality study.</B>

Dodger
05-15-2005, 07:31 PM
I am surprised GM is on there- didn't they have a lot of big number recalls the past few months?

Roadster44
05-16-2005, 12:32 PM
Anyone listened to Howard Stern this morning around 8:30am eastern time?<p>Anyways...I'm not surprised about JD Power being a joke. Its just a marketing tool and nothing more. Company must concentrate not on improving perceptions, but improving the products. It all comes down to making a good vehicle. How will Sonata survive against upcoming Camry? Hard to tell, I'm sure Toyota has noticed Hyundai's goal to become more upscale just like VW. That leads to be believe that next Camry will have an abundance of features that its competition doesn't have. Once on top, you got to make sure you stay there by doing everything possible, staying humble and sometimes taking risks. <p>As for Hyundai, yea the engine is fine, tranny is fine, but then a fuse blows out, blinker fluids leaks out, or a part comes loose. That's not reported by JD Power.

Excellerator
05-16-2005, 01:00 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone listened to Howard Stern this morning around 8:30am eastern time?<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p><IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/pukeface.gif" BORDER="0"><br>I was going to school and heard it. <p>If any of you guys didn't hear it, some guy called in and asked Howard Stern if he heard about a new Hyundai that looks like a Jaguar. Now, other than the KIA Amanti, what new Hyundai looks like a freekin Jag? He was probably talking about the Sonata or Azera. <p>Even Howard dissed Hyundai and Rob Cosmai since (according to the caller) Cosmai admitted he stole a Jaguar design and the company's being sued for it. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/angry.gif" BORDER="0"> I'm taking that guy's info with a grain of salt.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Hyundai_Fan at 4:08 PM 5/16/2005</i>

Roadster44
05-16-2005, 01:42 PM
Following that a caller brought up some good quality issues about Hyundais. He then went on to comment how their CEO hitchhikes and some other questionable activities. Howard was like "Would you ever get laid in a Hyundai? Who drives these cars?!"

anonms
05-16-2005, 03:25 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>That is very true...they all have contributed to the turn around of the US economy from the drought a very years gao. The cities with these auto plants have to be thankful for them being there...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Yeah. The domestics should be ashamed of themselves.

Excellerator
05-16-2005, 04:03 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"Would you ever get laid in a Hyundai? Who drives these cars?!"</TD></TR></TABLE><p>And to think I liked Howard. Not to be further off topic (maybe I should start a new thread on Howard and Hyundai <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">) but Howard doesn't have any facts to back him up. Nor do the callers. The CEO hitchhikes? I don;t understand that part, but there has got to be someone in the U.S who's "gotten laid" in one. Think about it: If Ferraris and Porshes give women the impression that the male driver is small in the groin area, imagine what they're thinking when he drives a <i>Hyundai</i>. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/icon11.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Yeah, maybe I should start a thread on Howard Stern and cars... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0">

knicks125
05-16-2005, 04:50 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyways...I'm not surprised about JD Power being a joke. Its just a marketing tool and nothing more. Company must concentrate not on improving perceptions, but improving the products. It all comes down to making a good vehicle.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Everything is flawed, but, there isn't really anything else that I can find that is as comprehensive as JD Power.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How will Sonata survive against upcoming Camry? Hard to tell, I'm sure Toyota has noticed Hyundai's goal to become more upscale just like VW. That leads to be believe that next Camry will have an abundance of features that its competition doesn't have. Once on top, you got to make sure you stay there by doing everything possible, staying humble and sometimes taking risks.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Hyundai is not becoming VW, they are not chasing VW, they are improving their cars and quality of their cars to be like Toyota. I assume your comparision is from the price point, but its cars are still within reasonable price ranges, unlike the jump VW has made. In my opinion, the next Camry will most likely going in the same route as the Sonata did, as many of the other popular midsize sedans - simple, useful, and reliable (and safe). You won't see a lot of special feaures but you will see a lot features suitable to the buyers of this segment, such as safety features and equipment.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As for Hyundai, yea the engine is fine, tranny is fine, but then a fuse blows out, blinker fluids leaks out, or a part comes loose. That's not reported by JD Power.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Have a read at the article I posted in this thread regarding Hyundai's improvement. You make it sound like Hyundai cars are still unreliable but when they have consistently scored ahead of the game...

rman5001
05-16-2005, 05:06 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>iHug Trees</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I hope people start a domestic backlash. j/k. But really-- while the domestics are laying-off Americans and diverting production to China, the imports are expanding in America. Sure, the money goes to Asia and not America, but it's the Asians that are increasing the number of Americans on their payroll.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Which domestics are shifting production to China for anything other than the Chinese/Asian market?

rman5001
05-16-2005, 05:10 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Roadster44</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Following that a caller brought up some good quality issues about Hyundais. He then went on to comment how their CEO hitchhikes and some other questionable activities. Howard was like "Would you ever get laid in a Hyundai? Who drives these cars?!"</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I caught a bit of the segment....seemed like the jist was about the class action lawsuit about misquoted horsepower figures. The CEO comment (which I didn't fully catch) was something about hitchhiking during a company/charity run. The first was a well document issue, the second, an amusing anecdote if ture.

anonms
05-16-2005, 05:10 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>rman5001</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Which domestics are shifting production to China for anything other than the Chinese/Asian market?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I admit that that wasn't a good argument of mine, but the main point is that domestic brands are decreasing production in the US (as in closing plants) while asian brands are increasing production in the US (as in opening plants).

knicks125
05-16-2005, 05:15 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>rman5001</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I caught a bit of the segment....seemed like the jist was about the class action lawsuit about misquoted horsepower figures.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but this happened a while ago, and Hyundai has taken care each owner with incentives. This hasn't been a issue for a while now, it was the "old Hyundai".

Uberwagon
05-16-2005, 05:57 PM
Okay, back to Sonata vs. Camry...<p>Seems like Hyundai, despite all the progress, still isn't going to be a legit contender to Camry. Regardless of all the features they pack in, it still isn't comparable in refinement. Nice car and all, and I'm sure they will be cross-shopped (with Accord). but the Camry is in its last months apparently, so whatever gains the Sonata makes will be somewhat neutralized by whatever development the new Toyota brings. And given the lopsided difference in their marketing budgets, by the time the average buyers starts hearing any good words about the Sonata (unlike today's brand-bashing on Howard Stern), it'll drowned out by the Toyota marketing machine.<p>Toyota just doesn't f--- around. Engineering, marketing; The whole package. They're tough competitors.

Roadster44
05-16-2005, 07:40 PM
In Hyundai's defense I will say however that the goal is to produce a car that will be cross-shopped with those of competition. Let's say you're shopping for a family sedan. So top 7 list is Passat, Accord, Altima, Taurus, Camry, Mazda 6, Sonata. Passat is old, poorly packaged in terms of price, slow. So its out. Taurus is a car you rent, ciao. Now you're down to 5 cars you'll actually check out. If Sonata can be in cross-shopping list then its already met its goal for time being.

knicks125
05-17-2005, 08:54 AM
On Toyota's website, it has annouced that in the 2nd half 06, Camry Hybrid will come off its Georgetown, KY plant (same line where they produce the Solara <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif" BORDER="0"> )<p>I would assume the regular Camry is due out early in 06<p>Let's hope this comes out well-received, since the sales of Accord Hybrid (as well as the Civic Hybrid) has been disappointing, so to speak.<p>Nissan Altima Hybrid should follow soon...

Uberwagon
05-17-2005, 11:23 AM
Excellent point, Roadster. The logical next step of Hyundai's sales evolution is probably consideration and cross-shopping with the heavyweights you've listed. It may not be an equal contender yet but it is working its way into the consideration set. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Yes, I hope everyone starts considering hybrids more too. Gasoline is a necessary evil but evil nonetheless. Unfortunately, buyers want to wear their altruism on their sleeve which Honda overlooked. Their cars look like every day Civics and Accords which makes a $3500 premium hard to swallow. This allowed Prius to dominate mindshare.<p>Long-term, I think hybrids may be in trouble however...

Roadster44
05-17-2005, 03:43 PM
They'll be in trouble once people will realize that hybrids are useful for urban driving, but don't make a difference on suburban roads worth additional $3000 over a petrol version. I much rather see the diesels finally make it to US. Which is actually supposed to happen in '07 once sulfur will be reduced. Enviromentalists are being misleading as well...diesel engines are now way way cleaner than they were even 10 years ago! <p>Back to Camry...the hybrid version should generate few more sales, not to mention good publicity.

anonms
05-17-2005, 03:54 PM
I heard about the Camry hybrid, too.<p>I feel heartbroken that Toyota didn't choose to use NUMMI to produce hybrids. It would be so awesome. ~sigh...~<p><br>Meanwhile, I think Honda's biggest problem is that they use the hybrid model as the top-of-the-line model, which makes the price really high.<p>Given the approach Toyota's taking on the Highlander Hybrid (where the hybrid powertrain is the third engine avaliable to customers on both the base and Limited trims), I'd say the Camry may be able to get more sales than the Accord since people who are on more of a budget and want something that doesn't stand out and is larger and a Civic would be able to get the Camry.

Roadster44
05-17-2005, 06:15 PM
Well that's why Toyota is up and Honda isn't.

Uberwagon
05-18-2005, 12:10 PM
Yes, I think Honda made big product planning and marketng mistakes with their hybrid strategy. They are excellent vechicles but do not fit what the current market is demanding. At the moment that is a) excellent mileage and b) something that makes a statement. Consumers are not looking to save money or blend in. They are buying them, at least right now, to asuage guilt and make a statement about their values. 9/11 did a lot to make hybrids relevant to a lot of people.<p>Is there any word on Hyundai's entry into the hybrid market? Will they license Toyota's technology, as others have? Personally, I think a small, hybrid 4-cylinder, *unique looking* SUV (Tuscon/RAV-sized, different styling to stand out) is the killer app for hybrids right now.<p>Sorry to get off topic!

knicks125
05-18-2005, 01:17 PM
From what I know, Hyundai currently already has the Getz (not sold in NA regions) hybrid, and they have been developing various alternative on the tucson...hyundai will defn. have hybrid cars and/or other alternatives soon...<p>to my knowledge, hyundai develops pretty much everything now in-house...<p>please add anything else I have missed and/or above items that are incorrect...

anonms
05-18-2005, 03:43 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Uberwagon</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, I think Honda made big product planning and marketng mistakes with their hybrid strategy. They are excellent vechicles but do not fit what the current market is demanding. At the moment that is a) excellent mileage and b) something that makes a statement. Consumers are not looking to save money or blend in. They are buying them, at least right now, to asuage guilt and make a statement about their values. 9/11 did a lot to make hybrids relevant to a lot of people.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I don't think making a statement is as big of an issue because the Insight seems to be a slow seller.<p>I just think that Honda's biggest fallacy was making the hybrid model the top-of-the-line model.