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View Full Version : Zeta Platform Cancelled! GM pulls plug on '08 line of cars


Nick
03-19-2005, 12:06 PM
from C&G by member Josh<br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your Official Zeta Site Has The Stories! Cost Concerns Believed To Be The Cause<p>Typically we get excited and happy when we provide a first scoop to the members & visitors of C&G but this is a first scoop I think wed all rather not report on. It's unfortunate that C&G has to be the bearer of bad news on this morning but as word quickly spreads around the internet, it has been confirmed to C&G that the Zeta program in North America is cancelled, or the vehicles placed on an indefinite suspension.<p>What exactly does this mean to the Bonnie's replacement, the Buick sedan/coupe and more importantly the Chevrolet Camaro? Quite frankly it seems nobody knows. GM is set to "right size" itself and shed jobs in North America in a European like restructuring.<p>I must say I'm saddened to hear about this news. It's a pretty sad day in automotive journalism when Americans continue to cut their own throat by lining the pockets of the Japanese because of their own ignorance.<p>The link to the thread confirming Zeta is dead is below here. I don't want to undercut anybody on reporting this, I just didn't want people to miss it. Please keep all Zeta related cancellation discussion in the thread below.<p>EDITFor those that do not believe what C&G is reporting, there will be a story set to run tomorrow in the Detriot News by Ed Garsten. In the story it is expected he wil outline the reasons as to why, which is cost concerns. </TD></TR></TABLE>

AM2
03-19-2005, 01:08 PM
After reading this... the other thread about GM's new full-size FWD platform makes sense now. Too bad for GM.

Nick
03-19-2005, 01:46 PM
yea, it's a bummer...they could still possibly use the sigma platform for these vehicles (being that the zeta was more or less a cheapened sigma)...it's hard times for GM right now...I guess they couldn't push the GMT-900's as well as the Zeta platform at the same time...

Hornbag
03-19-2005, 05:53 PM
Wasnt Zeta the Holden Commodores platform? OMG, that would explain why they have delayed it!

Nick
03-19-2005, 06:11 PM
yep...Holden was at the head of developing the Zeta architecture...

Hornbag
03-19-2005, 06:48 PM
Omg holy sh**! That realy will really f**k up the VE! soz, but this is HUGE news!

JBlair
03-19-2005, 11:58 PM
Frankly, I won't believe it until I hear the words come out of a GM executives mouth. This would essentially leave GM with nothing as far as competitive products against the revived domestic sedan competition, as well as all of the imports. Not to mention the fact that the supposed Cadillac ULS was to be based on Zeta (according to C&D, I believe) since Sigma could not be stretched much more without extensive re-engineering. Frankly, I doubt that it has been completely cancelled. I bet that it has been shelved until GM can find the cash (fire some of that damn beauracracy perhaps?) to finish it.

Hornbag
03-20-2005, 12:03 AM
It all makes sence tho. Holden have cut 255 jobs, and they have delayed the next VE Commodore. This all done just prior to my knoledge of this. I believe it alrite...

AM2
03-20-2005, 12:47 AM
The next generation (Zeta platform) Pontiac GTO was rumored to be made in North America. Does this mean there will be no next generation Pontiac GTO?<br>

Nick
03-20-2005, 01:44 AM
yea, there were also rumors that there would be cancellation of the GTO project...from what I have gathered this will jsut basically be a hiatus of the Zeta project...as it says in the quoted text, it is probably on indefinite suspension...too bad, I was really anticipating some awesome products, but I can understand why they would do this with the slump GM is in right now...

mzoltarp
03-20-2005, 06:09 AM
This makes PERFECT sense. GM has a history of being clueless about the marketplace and then producing misfires. The Saturn Ion was disasterously bad on introduction and was severely panned by the mags. GM also has a knack of introducing cars before the engineering is done. The glitches with the Saturn VUE are so reminiscent of the Chevy Citation/X Car woes. GM is losing market share because they are not targeting Toyota and Honda and taking dead aim. The fact that the dowdy old (pre 2005) Mustang was kicking the Camaro and Firebird in the marketplace spoke volumes. Of course they are going to cancel the one platform that could put them back in the running. When you run your company by shooting yourself in the food this is what you do.

JBlair
03-20-2005, 11:41 AM
I wonder what Chicago Tribune they claim to be quoting from, because it isn't in any recent edition that I have seen.

AXLE
03-20-2005, 09:05 PM
So what does this mean to holden? No more rear drive commodore? or is another platform in the works? It would be funny to see the next-gen large Holden Sedan with FWD <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> They would have change the rules for the V8 supercars and perhaps rename it to "FWD V6 Supercars" at which time Mitsubishi and Toyota would finally get in on the action. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/1orglaugh.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/1orglaugh.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/1orglaugh.gif" BORDER="0">

AM2
03-20-2005, 11:26 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>AXLE</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So what does this mean to holden? No more rear drive commodore? or is another platform in the works? It would be funny to see the next-gen large Holden Sedan with FWD </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Read this:<br><B><I>"it has been confirmed to C&G that the Zeta program in North America is cancelled"</I></B><p>Holdens are from Australia not North America. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0">

Hornbag
03-21-2005, 12:17 AM
But Holden is still a division of GM, therefore it would be a waste to devolp this platform and not use it in america? U dont make sence AM2. No offence...

Nick
03-21-2005, 01:14 AM
here's an article from detroit news<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> General Motors Corp. Vice Chairman Bob Lutz wipes smudges off the Buick Velite in 2004. GM is dropping the rear-drive architecture on which the car is based.<p> Struggles at General Motors<p> GM pulls plug on '08 line of cars<p> Product czar Bob Lutz wants to speed new trucks, SUVs to market faster.<p> By Ed Garsten / The Detroit News<p> Comment on this story<br> Send this story to a friend<br> Get Home Delivery<p> DETROIT -- General Motors Corp. has killed plans for a new line of rear-wheel drive passenger cars slated to reach North American showrooms in 2008, in large part to free up resources to bring its next generation of large pickups and sport utility vehicles to market quicker.<p> The news comes after GM reassured investors, suppliers and Wall Street analysts last week that future car and truck programs would remain on schedule despite a new cost-cutting effort.<p> The automaker is under severe pressure to streamline after announcing last week its 2005 earnings would fall as much as 80 percent below previous estimates.<p> "While work on particular North American applications of our premium rear-wheel drive midsize vehicle architecture have indeed been stopped, we have begun to study new approaches to efficiently capitalize on future opportunities we see for future midsize rear-wheel drive applications," Marc Beckers, a spokesman for GM, said.<p> The rear-drive "global architecture" -- dubbed Zeta -- was to provide the basic underpinnings for an array of cars and crossover vehicles for markets around the world. It will continue to be the basis for products sold in regions outside North America.<p> GM's decision to kill the Zeta program puts the brakes on development of the next generation Pontiac GTO sports car, and new entries for Chevrolet, Buick and Pontiac. The current GTO is already being produced by GM's Holden unit in Australia.<p> Bob Lutz, GM's vice chairman for product development, canceled development of the premium rear-wheel models for North America, according to two people familiar with the situation.<p> It was Lutz who first championed the new rear-wheel drive platform. The renowned car expert announced the Zeta program in 2003 as the industry was turning its attention toward rear-wheel drive vehicles.<p> But he pulled the plug on the North America models after determining the vehicles could not be engineered and assembled to sell at prices competitive with the popular Chrysler 300C, Ford Mustang and other models, without sacrificing quality and content.<p> In addition, GM is anxious to free up resources to speed up the launch of its new line of full-size pickup trucks. They are not expected to arrive until 2006.<p> Many in the industry expected the Zeta architecture would mean the return of the Chevrolet Camaro and production versions of the Buick Velite concept car, which debuted at the 2004 New York auto show to rave reviews.<p> "This is scary. It puts GM behind the eight ball," said Joseph Phillippi of AutoTrends Consulting in Short Hills, N.J. "It makes you wonder why can't they get it right. Where does it seemingly go wrong?"<p> The retreat from Zeta could delay the introduction of GM's new rear-wheel drive passenger cars by at least a year, Phillippi said.<p> That's bad news for the automaker, which has seen only lukewarm early sales for several of its newly launched products, such as the Pontiac G6, Chevrolet Cobalt and Buick LaCrosse. The new Chevrolet Equinox, a small SUV, has been a strong seller.<p> Global Insight market analyst John Wolkonowicz said GM's decision to stop the development of Zeta-based vehicles for North America means a missed opportunity to compete.<p> "The Chrysler 300C is a watershed car like the 1986 Ford Taurus," said Wolkonowicz. "With Zeta, GM had an answer."<p> For sure, GM has not given up on rear-wheel drive vehicles. Two roadsters, the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky, will be rear-wheel drive entries. Other rear-wheel drive GM cars include the Cadillac CTS and STS sedans, the Chevrolet Corvette and the Pontiac GTO.<p> GM Chairman Rick Wagoner last week said there would be no reduction in capital spending in light of the abrupt profit warning and signaled new product programs would be safe from the budget ax.<p> "Product remains the first and most important element of the strategy to get North America on track," he said.<p> Through February, GM sales are down 10 percent from last year and its market share has slipped to 24.9 percent, compared with 26.7 percent a year ago, according to Autodata Corp.<p> "When you have an automaker struggling from a market share or sales standpoint, the worst thing you can do is slow introduction of product," said Erich Merkle, an analyst with Grand Rapids consultants IRN Inc. "It may point to some issues GM is having internally, perhaps from a communication perspective between what the market wants and what GM can afford."<p> You can reach Ed Garsten at (313) 223-3217 or egarsten@detnews.com.<p></TD></TR></TABLE><p><A HREF="http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/21/A01-123402.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.detnews.com/2005/au...2.htm</A>

TeeDi
03-21-2005, 03:31 AM
I don't think this will effect Holden too much, I hope. If the platform is still produced for sale outside of North America, then it would seem that it's still "full steam ahead" for Holden.<p>It might just mean, that if Opel and Vauxhall decide they want a "Holden" equivalent, then maybe Holden may make them in Australia, rather than in Europe. <p>It look's like North America is just going to miss out again on a large RWD car.

Gian86
03-21-2005, 03:36 AM
OMG!!!!! No way!!!!!<br>I will be very angry with gm right now, big time <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/crying.gif" BORDER="0">

dukedb9
03-21-2005, 06:11 AM
I kinda take this as a good thing, personally. I mean, the Camaro had LONG since been equated with cheesiness. Big and cheesy. The old ones were great, but....<p>I'm goning to be positive and take this as a sign that GM is starting to deal with reality. It needs to deal with the middle of the market, the bread and butter and get those market right before it starts making "specialty" cars. And if it can't do it at the same time - so be it.<p>GM hasn't made truely competative cars for some time. Until they can make an Accord/Camry/Altima and a Civic/Corolla/(well, maybe not the Sentra), they should really lay off the side projects. GTO's nice, but it doesn't sell big.

AM2
03-21-2005, 08:26 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Hornbag</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> U dont make sence AM2. No offence...</TD></TR></TABLE><br>They cancelled the Zeta project in North America... that means it will most likely still continue for Holden in Australia and Opel/Vauxhall in Europe.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Hornbag</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But Holden is still a division of GM, therefore it would be a waste to devolp this platform and not use it in america? </TD></TR></TABLE><br>GM in Europe and Australia have been developing RWD platforms that were never used in any American model for decades. <p>The short lived Catera was an import from Germany and the Pontiac GTO is an import from Australia.

Nick
03-21-2005, 10:29 AM
GM will eventually start up Zeta again, right now it is just postponed for a little while until they can get the GMT-900's out to market a little earlier than planned...that's what this is all about really...they will start on the zeta architecure again once everything is running smoothly again...so we may be waiting for a while...btw, dukeb9, i dont understand how the camaro was equated with cheesiness...the mustangs, while they sold more, if you put one head to head with a camaro, the camaro would rape it...now the late 80's early 90's IrocZ camaros were equated with rednecks/white trash with mullets, but i dont know about the other years...my grandma's Z28 could probably easily take on the current GT...but anyways....

knicks125
03-21-2005, 02:12 PM
<A HREF="http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/21/A01-123402.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.detnews.com/2005/au...2.htm</A><p>saw this coming...<p>

Roadster44
03-21-2005, 04:58 PM
Maybe GM knows something we don't. But in my eyes I think car market is going to take off again and SUV's aren't selling. If I were going to make SUVs I'd do high-end and low-end models, with very few middle models...those are the ones that don't sell.<p>People buy high end model SUVs because they love the image and don't care about gas prices. Then low-end models still get pretty good fuel mileage. However middle class trucks like Explorer and Trailblazer, H2 aren't selling.

erzhik
03-21-2005, 05:14 PM
the car is ugly anyway

Top Secret
03-21-2005, 05:18 PM
What car are you talking about? We are talking about platforms, not particular cars.... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/cwm13.gif" BORDER="0">

Nick
03-21-2005, 07:49 PM
of course...we saw this coming with the cancellation of Zeta...GM's financial problems have come to bite them in the ass...and now harder than ever...the only thing GM has to depend on now are the new GMT-900's...sure, the new refreshed cars may sell, infact the impala will probably do great like it has been...the lucerne will hopefully do well in sales, and as far as cadillac goes, well there aren't many problems there...G6 is somewhat of a flop, solstice should do well, and the upcoming saturn/opels should do great also, but GM's biggest moneymakers are the GMT-900's and if they are a hit it could mean a lot to GM...if they aren't then GM is gonna have a real real hard time recovering...not that they wont already...

Hornbag
03-22-2005, 12:10 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>AM2</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>They cancelled the Zeta project in North America... that means it will most likely still continue for Holden in Australia and Opel/Vauxhall in Europe.<p>GM in Europe and Australia have been developing RWD platforms that were never used in any American model for decades. <br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>But Holden would have finished designs, and would be WAY into the progress of devoloping the Commodore. Is Zeta already designed? Cos it just seems a waste to use this in Australia, where the US could do with this too. And to find a new platform when the Commodore is a year off, thats just really cutting it...<br>

knicks125
03-22-2005, 06:40 AM
Nick...good points you made all around, and I agree, although this setback will not mark the fall of GM, in fact, far from it, I see GM will come back and continue as the leader as the #1 automaker in the world, espeically in the truck segment.<p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif" BORDER="0">

AM2
03-22-2005, 11:19 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Hornbag</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>But Holden would have finished designs, and would be WAY into the progress of devoloping the Commodore. Is Zeta already designed? Cos it just seems a waste to use this in Australia, where the US could do with this too. And to find a new platform when the Commodore is a year off, thats just really cutting it...<br></TD></TR></TABLE><br>The news says they stopped the Zeta program in North America... doesn't that mean Holden is continuing with the project(they were the ones heading it)?<br>Holden, Vauxhall and Opel will have RWD sedans... while Chevrolet, Pontiac and Buick in North America are stuck with FWD sedans.<br>

JBlair
03-22-2005, 11:51 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>AM2</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The news says they stopped the Zeta program in North America... doesn't that mean Holden is continuing with the project(they were the ones heading it)?<br>Holden, Vauxhall and Opel will have RWD sedans... while Chevrolet, Pontiac and Buick in North America are stuck with FWD sedans.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Just by reading through the articles, it sounds like the Zeta program will be restarted once GM gets the new trucks out of the gate. I think DetNews was the outlet, but they said that the NA Zetas have only finished the design phase, and therefore can easily be put on hold and restarted later.

Roadster44
03-22-2005, 04:26 PM
I mentioned cars because platforms underpin cars and trucks. And I don't see such a huge need to concentrate on SUVs as opposed to concentrating on a rwd platform. I think it'll be a costly mistake and come 08 GM will be behind the 8ball again.

Hornbag
03-23-2005, 05:05 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>knicks125</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I see GM will come back and continue as the leader as the #1 automaker in the world, espeically in the truck segment.<p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Or Ford could take over the world and kill GM...either one! LOL <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> Joke<p>Yeah, i get ya now AM2, soz, im a bit slow on the uptake! LOL <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/werd.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>

mzoltarp
03-23-2005, 07:27 AM
In the USA Toyota will have the upper hand. By 08 GM will have lost even more market share because by 08 Toyota will no doubt have hybrid everythings and will be cornering the market.

knicks125
03-23-2005, 12:24 PM
interesting read...<p><A HREF="http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/hommel031805pv.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.gold-eagle.com/edit....html</A>

AM2
03-23-2005, 01:01 PM
About the continued development of the Zeta platform in Australia....<br><B><I>"General Motors has announced it will no longer develop new rear-wheel-drive platform vehicles in the North American market.<p>Company insiders said the decision to stop developing cars on the platform, code-named Zeta, was made last year, the Chicago Tribune reported Saturday. They said the decision was not related to the company's projected loss of $850 million for this year. <p>Experts had predicted GM would use Zeta for the next-generation Pontiac GTO and possibly the Buick Velite sedan and convertible, and a midsize Chevrolet sedan.<p><B>GM's Holden subsidiary in Australia will continue to develop the Zeta platform.</B> "</I></B><br>-http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=81a2dafdc726f810

knicks125
03-28-2005, 11:31 AM
A good article - <A HREF="http://www.macleans.ca/switchboard/columnists/article.jsp?content=20050404_103129_103129" TARGET="_blank">http://www.macleans.ca/switchb...03129</A><p><B>How Detroit lost its cool<p>By relying on incentives, GM and Ford have lost ground to the imports</B><br>

Roadster44
03-28-2005, 06:02 PM
Sad because rwd premium platforms are going to be very handy for building niche vehicles which are becoming increasingly popular. GM is playing it safe again by concentrating on development of SUV's and they cannot rely on SUV success. Unless they know something we don't. But for now I don't see cancellation of Zeta as a solution.

Naga Royal Guard
03-28-2005, 06:05 PM
they still have kappa right? so the solstice/sky will remain

Mindless T
03-28-2005, 06:17 PM
Does it mean that the next 'vette is gun be FWD?

Nick
03-28-2005, 06:23 PM
don't even joke about something like that...

nismo
03-28-2005, 09:41 PM
The SUV market is just as improtant as the car market... its now a 50/50 split. SUV sales aren't going down, they've just stopped growing. GM can't afford to lose the sales they rely on to stay alive. If they don't finish their new large and mid size SUVs the imports will continue to take their sales. Also, DCX has been stealing sales with their new products. <p>No doubt this RWD platform is needed but if GM chose the RWD car platform over their trucks/SUVs they would be taking a chance they definately can't afford.<p>Its not even about being #1 because Toyotas coming and they're not slowing down but GMs trying to remain profitable (if they even still are).

Roadster44
03-29-2005, 08:14 AM
Nismo I agree, but I think that GM needlessly shot itself in the foot by producing tons of same products for all their different brands and creating a huge overlap. <p>What's the point of having all these re-badged suvs if they are just standing on parking lots and selling with huge incentives? Toyota is doing great with their suv line-up because there is no product overlap, they are well built, well refined, priced right and have a good solid image. <p>I understand GM's unwillingness to shut down Buick because then their GMC-Pontiac-Buick dealership network would be negatively affected. But at this point I think Buick and GMC need to go, at least based on current circumstances. A year ago I'd have told you to have Buick compete with Lexus, but that is no longer reasonable and not worth the resources. You'd have to rebuild the image of the brand, invest in design, development and marketing costs. Its all about trimming down and maximising your available resources. Like Carlos Ghosn I agree there is no point for going after volume if there is no profitability.

knicks125
03-30-2005, 06:22 AM
Crunch Time for GM - see article below:<p><A HREF="http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P113050.asp?GT1=6305" TARGET="_blank">http://moneycentral.msn.com/co...=6305</A>

knicks125
03-30-2005, 11:49 AM
More Signs...<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Source</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Toyota on Track to Be World's Biggest Automaker by 2008<p>TOKYO  Toyota may become the number-one automaker in the world by 2008, overtaking rival General Motors, the newspaper Asahi Shimbun reported Tuesday.<br>Toyota intends to make 9.7 million vehicles globally in 2008, although the company said it only had "loose" internal targets for sales and production for that time period. The only official Toyota forecast was to build 8.5 million vehicles globally in 2006.<p>Asahi Shimbun reported that a source said Toyota recently revised its production target for 2008 under a midterm business plan. Toyota produced 7.54 million vehicles last year, while GM made an estimated 8.99 million in 2004, the paper said.<p>What this means to you: Imagine a world in which the U.S. is second place in the world in the auto industry. That's going to be hard to swallow.<br></TD></TR></TABLE>

dukedb9
03-30-2005, 12:19 PM
This didn't happen overnight. I don't think many people are surprised.<p>Too little, too late.

knicks125
03-30-2005, 12:21 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>dukedb9</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This didn't happen overnight. I don't think many people are surprised.<p>Too little, too late.</TD></TR></TABLE><p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0"> we saw it coming...<p>oh by the way, it ain't going to be hard for me to swallow when the US does become second - referring to the last line comment in the original quote from source

Hornbag
04-01-2005, 06:32 PM
GM i can see as losing to Toyota. As most have said, we all saw it coming...<p>But for some reason i have full trust in Ford lifting their game back and getting that #1 spot again. Soz, i just HAD to say that!

Spider-Dan
05-20-2005, 03:39 PM
Sure we saw it coming, it's just something we don't want happening.<p>Toyota can become for #1, but the question is, for how long can they hold that spot?<p>Dan

Nick
05-20-2005, 10:21 PM
Once you are on top there is nowhere to go but down....once you are at rock bottom there is nowhere to go but up...GM hasn't has very much luck lately...a lot of bad news, but they will recover eventually...it will take a while, but in time they will regain their top spot and will hopefully in time rise up and once again become truly the world's greatest automaker...

mzoltarp
05-29-2005, 06:39 AM
In addition to cutting out redundancies, they need someone who can do competent styling (their's is less hit more miss), and they need world-class engineering. The Buick LaCrosse is pretty much the same GM10 platform introduced 15 years ago. It was an also-ran then. The current large-sized pickups and SUVs will be replaced by "all new" ones which will more than likely be only slightly different than the current ones under the sheet metal. Killing the Zeta platform was pathetically dumb because it was (1) a truly new platform not owing anything to 15 year old designs, and (2) is would have been incredibly flexible to produce a wide range of cars.

JBlair
05-29-2005, 11:21 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>mzoltarp</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">(1) a truly new platform not owing anything to 15 year old designs, and (2) is would have been incredibly flexible to produce a wide range of cars.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>It was new, but it wasn't going to be as flexible as you might think. For the US, GM only had plans to produce a few cars off Zeta. Most of them would be replacements for the current large FWD cars, and maybe 1 or 2 new ones (and the GTO of course). The simple fact is that GM could not justify spending the cash to develop these cars, when the money could be used to speed up development of the cash-cow full size SUVs and trucks. And as for styling, as much as people are hating on Bob Lutz, most of them refuse to acknowledge the fact that until the Solstice comes out there are NO GM automobiles that are being produced that were developed entirely under his watch. Those new cars, including the Solstice, Sky, and Aura, are what the future holds and people just need to be patient with GM getting them out.

62Lincoln
05-30-2005, 07:10 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JBlair</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>Those new cars, including the Solstice, Sky, and Aura, are what the future holds and people just need to be patient with GM getting them out. </TD></TR></TABLE><br>Part of GM's problem is the timing of their product intros. Regardless of the success of the Solstice, Sky, and to a lesser extent the Aura, they do not represent volume products that produce major income. The G6 is an example of such a product, and although perhaps not done on Lutz's watch, its failure in the market is damaging to GM. Add to that the poor timing (not anyone's fault, just bad luck) of the truck/SUV intros, coming just as the market begins to swoon for those products, and you have today's crisis at GM.

mzoltarp
05-31-2005, 06:11 AM
The Zeta was needed to replace GM's large sedans. GM is losing that market to Toyota via the Avalon and Hyundai via the Azera. Laxus/Acura/Infiniti are siphoning off as well. The Zeta could have been a Chevy Impala, Buick Latrine (they love L names), some cross overs, at least one Cadillac, a new Saab. The new GM trucks and SUVs are going to belly flop. The market is soft and they will not have much luck in scoring a home run without profit eating rebates.

Gian86
09-13-2005, 06:50 PM
Folks, GM has made the decision to make the Zeta platform back in track. It will be only be in Australia and mostly America, not europe. Looking forward to few legends returns to America soon. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">

Roadster44
09-13-2005, 07:43 PM
Good...they need to start making cars for everyone, not expect one product to cover all audiences. Shut down Buick and GMC. Bring Vauxhall/Opel products as Saturns. Turn Pontiac into Dodge competitor with in your face styling along with performance, Chevy a mainstream brand, and Caddy a true luxury brand. Less is more. Oh and rwd small sedan, coupe, hatchback. 1-er competitor? You bet! :-)

Nodnarb
09-14-2005, 02:28 PM
Wow, this has been obvious for several weeks now, no offense. With Zeta prototype shots in the spy section going on, I don't think anyone needed to be explicitly told Zeta was back on, but whatever. And if you haven't noticed, they are bringing Vauxhall/Opel products as the next generation Saturns. And I think Chevy already is a mainstream brand and Caddy is a luxury brand and their images with the public reflects that. A 1-Series competitor would be stupid. If BMW wants to go down market, fine, but I think Saturn will do fine against the 1-Series with the next Ion being an Astra essentially. And shutting down Buick and GMC would be stupid. GMC is their most profitable division, even though it is just Chevy clones, essentially. And Buick is the company that started GM. This is the one point where I agree with Jerry Flint and that is that if they can't keep Buick around, then they don't deserve to stay around. Buick has the new Rendezvous (Centieme for the next generation), the Lucerne and a Zeta car on the way. The Buick line is going to be strong. I think that Kappa will hold down the small, RWD segment fine with the cars on it. The line up they have on the way holds promise. And that isn't my opinion, that was the opinions of some of the most jaded GM haters in the media after a recent preview party GM held.

SHEPO
09-16-2005, 04:08 PM
As said by Roadster44:<p><B>Good...they need to start making cars for everyone, not expect one product to cover all audiences. Shut down Buick and GMC. Bring Vauxhall/Opel products as Saturns. Turn Pontiac into Dodge competitor with in your face styling along with performance, Chevy a mainstream brand, and Caddy a true luxury brand. Less is more. Oh and rwd small sedan, coupe, hatchback. 1-er competitor? You bet! :-) </B><p>AMEN!!! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bowdown.gif" BORDER="0">