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Superfresa
05-23-2005, 08:48 AM
We all love our manual gearboxes. It gives us more control, they are way more fun, they are responsive, and so on. However, most of us would agree that auto gearboxes are becoming a lot better and the days when an auto box meant "car to go shopping" are over.<p>Tiptronic and similars are one good technological advance made on gearboxes in the last years, and now most manufacturers offer such gearboxes (This is the type where you can drive by manually shifting or by ordinary auto mode). Nowadays, the strange thing is having a manual box, where before nobody wanted an auto.<p><br>With all of that, the reasons to own a manual are less as time passes. So, what would make you take an auto gearbox for your fun drive or for the car you always wanted to own if you were purchasing it now?

Superfresa
05-23-2005, 08:55 AM
Personally I feeel confident with auto boxes, as I do with manuals, except for the fact that if something fails you can't sort of let it roll down hill and lift your clutch up in second to turn the thing on. Maybe that feature would make me definitely go with auto boxes.<p>At this point I would take any of the two as long as it's tiptronic.<p>Then again I'm not into super sports cars, in that case I would only take a manual, but thinking about it with an open mind, it's not like there's a real reason why an auto box couldn't do the job is there?<p>BTW Whilst were at it, most auto cars have an H box (with push up or down to switch gears).<p>P<br>R +<br>N -- <br>D -<br>L<p>But I noticed that Jaguar uses some funny U shape box. How does this one work? is it only like:<p>5 P<br>4 R<br>3 N<br>2 D<br>1 uhmmm....<p>Or is it somehow a touch up/down to shift??

anonms
05-23-2005, 05:43 PM
Is it possible for a CVT to be designed to maximize performance rather than efficiency?<p>I think you've got the Jaguar one correct.<p>I think gated shifters are way more common that manumatics... you know, the ones that go:<p>P----<br> -N<br> -R<br>4-D<br>3-<br> 2<br> 1<p>And I thought the manual shift part was next to the D, not N.<p>Toyota uses:<br>P--<br> -R<br>-N +<br>D-----<br> -<br>

Superfresa
05-23-2005, 07:26 PM
Whatever, I own a 1970s land rover so I wouldn't know <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0">

Santeno
05-24-2005, 06:44 AM
Living in one of th emost heavily congested cities in the countries, I can attest to how annoying it can be to drive a stick shift vehicle in heavy traffic. Hills and traffic are an even bigger pain. For my daily driver in city traffic, I FAR preffer an automatic gearbox. Now, for weekend open road driving fun, bring on the stick shift.

mzoltarp
05-24-2005, 04:13 PM
I'm a die hard stick fanatic, but when I drove the Mustang V8 I decided to order the automatic because it is eerie fast as is and much more convenient in daily driving.

Excellerator
05-24-2005, 05:03 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Santeno</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Living in one of th emost heavily congested cities in the countries, I can attest to how annoying it can be to drive a stick shift vehicle in heavy traffic. Hills and traffic are an even bigger pain. For my daily driver in city traffic, I FAR preffer an automatic gearbox. Now, for weekend open road driving fun, bring on the stick shift.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Even being a beginner to stick shifts (one year experience), I don't see how big a pain they are in the city. Our Excel has a four speed, and even <i>that</i> didn't bother me until the transmission finally went "screeeeeech-ch-ch-ch..." ten miles away from home. Unless you're talking about leg pain and slipping the clutch often, then I guess I'm with you guys about the pain of using manuals in the city.<p>As much as I like autos as well, who <i>likes</i> those gated shifters? I'd rather push a button and move the shifter down, not a little to the right, down, then a little to the left, down, and a little more to the left, only to do the opposite when parking. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0">

Superfresa
05-24-2005, 09:10 PM
I think that auto gearboxes should offer the possibility to set it in auto or manual with two levers behind the wheel. It should give the auto boxes that extra sportyness they need to convince people...

Verdegrrl
05-25-2005, 09:49 AM
Both manual transmissions and traditional automatics are probably going to go away in passenger cars - except for some niche markets. <p>What remains? <p>CVTs for smaller engined cars that must make the most of available power. It's the best way to get all the power down with maximum fuel efficiency and speed. Advances in engine throttle management has resulted in a more natural feel than some earlier versions.<p>DSG style manumatics. Keep in mind that this isn't an automatic with a torque converter like Tiptronic or the copy-cats, but a manual gearbox with an electronic clutch. Why the Volkswagen DSG? Because the shifts happen so much faster than any of the other manumatics out there, thanks to two clutches. It's virtually conventional automatic smooth in auto mode, and incredibly quick in manual mode when you use the paddle shifters. It's as efficient if not more so, than a regular manual, and faster too. Because you still have fixed gears, it won't be as efficient as the CVT for extracting that last tiny bit of forward motion, but it can handle the higher torque that has kept CVTs out of larger cars.<p>I've lived in Los Angeles for over 10 years, and never wanted an automatic during that time. Tiptronics are an improvement over conventional automatics, but I like the involvement of the 3rd pedal.

taskbearer
05-25-2005, 01:05 PM
I agree with you Verdegrrl. CVTs would replace automatics for smaller cars and DSG( or more precisely "Twin Clutch gearbox")would take over in sports cars. Big cars might still have to rely on automatics, but the manual would not die yet. There's still a bunch of people out their who couldn't care less of how fast a Twin clutch gearbox shifts.All they want is the complete manual experience. <p>Do you know that it feels faster driving a traditional manual than clutchless manuals or manumatic? even if a DSG gearbox would produce faster acceleration times, it feels slightly slower than a cluthced manual because the gerachange actions are fewer. Thats why BMW is going to offer the M5 with a traditional 6 speed manual for the US enthusiats even if the 7speed SMG is faster. Enthusiasts like their manual experience and I am one of them.

mzoltarp
05-27-2005, 02:26 PM
Amen Verdegrrl<br>

chaserolls
05-28-2005, 11:03 AM
<br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Verdegrrl</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Both manual transmissions and traditional automatics are probably going to go away in passenger cars - except for some niche markets. <p>DSG style manumatics. Keep in mind that this isn't an automatic with a torque converter like Tiptronic or the copy-cats, but a manual gearbox with an electronic clutch. Why the Volkswagen DSG? Because the shifts happen so much faster than any of the other manumatics out there, thanks to two clutches. It's virtually conventional automatic smooth in auto mode, and incredibly quick in manual mode when you use the paddle shifters. It's as efficient if not more so, than a regular manual, and faster too. Because you still have fixed gears, it won't be as efficient as the CVT for extracting that last tiny bit of forward motion, but it can handle the higher torque that has kept CVTs out of larger cars.<br>.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I know the DSG blips the throttle on downshifts, but is it really as smooth as a good as a competent driver doing a perfect heel-toe in manual?<p>My only discrepancy with tiptronic and similar sequential manual gearboxes is that they are a little rough on the downshifts

Verdegrrl
05-28-2005, 11:29 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>chaserolls</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p><br>I know the DSG blips the throttle on downshifts, but is it really as smooth as a good as a competent driver doing a perfect heel-toe in manual?<p>My only discrepancy with tiptronic and similar sequential manual gearboxes is that they are a little rough on the downshifts </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Undetectable virtually all of the time. In the Audi A3, it's like butter. In the TT 3.2 with more engine braking, you can feel it once in a while, but not more than most competent heel and toes drivers.<p>You can occasionally catch the DSG napping, but that's really rare and pretty minor. Instead the gearbox readies the next gear by staging one or the other clutch to go up or down a gear, depending on what you're doing with the throttle and/or brakes. <p>See the link for a better explantion and pictures to show why this system works so well:<p> <A HREF="http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/gearbox/tech_gear_manual.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.autozine.org/techni...l.htm</A>

Superfresa
05-31-2005, 06:55 AM
Are manumatics the type where you get two levers (left and right) behind the steering wheel and you just shift up by pulling the right one towards you and letting go and down by pulling the left one?

Verdegrrl
06-08-2005, 11:13 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>R Performance</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are manumatics the type where you get two levers (left and right) behind the steering wheel and you just shift up by pulling the right one towards you and letting go and down by pulling the left one?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Manumatic simply means a transmission in which you don't have a clutch pedal, but can control the gearshifts via either the primary shifter on the center console, or buttons or paddles on the steering wheel.<p>There are two primary types:<p>A regular manual transmission with a clutch, but instead a pedal you operate, the buttons/paddles control solonoids make the shift for you. This ranges from the Ferrari F1 system, to Audi's twin clutch design known as DSG. There are plenty of variations inbetween. Most car makers are now working on a DSG style transmission because the shifts are far smoother and more seamless than other types of this gearbox controller.<p>An automatic gearbox with electronic overides. It still has a torque converter like any other automatic. An easy solution, and one that until the DSG transmission was still the smoothest. Until very recently, DSG could not handle high torque applications, and so if you wanted to offer a car without a clutch pedal and still wanted smooth gearchanges, you had to use a regular automatic - preferably with the electronic over-ride for a more sporting feel.<p>Here is an excellent website with all the basic data you'll need:<p> <A HREF="http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/tech_index.htm#Transmission" TARGET="_blank">http://www.autozine.org/techni...ssion</A>

taskbearer
06-10-2005, 01:43 PM
WOW verdegrrl you read autozine too! That site singlehandedly taught me everything I know about cars and I still go back to refresh my memory.

Hornbag
06-10-2005, 06:09 PM
I much prefer trip shifts or paddle shifts.<p>While they may not be as sporty as a conventional manual, they have a full auto and then an alternitve manual. Plus these days autos are becominf faster than their manual mates, i mean the 7 speed auto in the SLK is faster than the manual version...