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View Full Version : What Car Company Is Truly Ahead of the Current Times?


Naga Royal Guard
03-30-2005, 01:11 PM
The past has seen particular car companies ( namely MB but others too at different times ) truly stand out beyond the rest of the industry. But that is not the point of this thread ( maybe another ); what company(s) now hold that honor?

Charger
03-30-2005, 01:18 PM
Dodge- Bold designs and power<p>BMW- Designs<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Charger at 3:31 PM 3/30/2005</i>

knicks125
03-30-2005, 01:23 PM
how about Nissan or Hyundai?

T.B.
03-30-2005, 01:27 PM
1. BMW (with design, ergonomy & diesel turbo engines)<br>2. Toyota (with hybrids) <br>3. VW / Audi (with DSG gearbox)

Santeno
03-30-2005, 01:46 PM
Toyota, probably the leanest industrial manufacturer in the world (and somehow continues to cut the fat).<p>Productwise, no one really, since most new development is coming from suppliers.<p>

Player4
03-30-2005, 02:16 PM
BMW and Infiniti - Designs<br>Toyota - Hybrids<br>Honda/Acura - Navigation Systems and All/Four Wheel Drive Systems<br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Player4 at 9:08 PM 3/30/2005</i>

CarMattZu777
03-30-2005, 04:01 PM
I think Nissan in terms of concepts, they always have the most innovative and futuristic concepts, and usually some of the attributes of these concepts make it into production vehicles. I think the Murano and Quest were groundbreaking designs, as well as the Infiniti FX.

KebabGud
03-30-2005, 04:18 PM
it must be toyota ...<br>hybrids hybrids and other teknologies..<br>like the new AWD system .. the most advanced awd system in the world..<br>and there fast to come out with brand new suspension systems.. <br>and all in ONE CAR! .. (the GS300 AWD is the worlds most advanced car..)<p>there are ahead of there time .. but .. only by one-two years...<br>

Pavilion
03-30-2005, 04:45 PM
I would have to say Toyota. Lexus, Toyota, and Scion seem to be getting better every day. On the most basic levels, Toyota is the new Gm, buy young with scion and move up to Toyota and then eventually graduate to the lexus brand. It also helps to have seperate brand images. Gm should take note.

Top Secret
03-30-2005, 05:58 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Tine</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1. BMW (with design, ergonomy & diesel turbo engines)</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Diesel turbo engines eh? I think the baton is passed to MB for that one with it's tri-tubo diesel engines.<p>And Kebagud, I though Honda/Acura had the most advanced AWD system, with it's SH-AWD? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/nixweiss.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>And I certainly do think Toyota is at the forefront, and Mazda is/was with it's freestyle door system.

Comrade
03-30-2005, 06:46 PM
It didn't say anything special about the AWD on Lexus's website except that it's the first time Lexus offers that feature on a car. I think you must have confused it with Acura's SH-AWD like Top Secret said. The next Quattro might even be better or as good as Acura's system, but there isn't anything special about the AWD in the Lexus as far as I know...<br>BMW has the best suspensions and really good steering.

Cozz
03-30-2005, 08:27 PM
I thought Audi had the best AWD system out there? Maybe including the auto tranny? What's so special about the Toyota/Lexus AWD?

Comrade
03-30-2005, 09:28 PM
I think Audi's quattro was the best until Acura came along with its "Smart Handling-AWD". The Acura RL can shift torque to each wheel and is basically the Torsen3 while the quattro in all models features Torsen2 which shifts torque to both front and both rear wheels. The new RS4 that debuted recently has the Torsen3 which could be better or as good as SH-AWD. All Audis will have T3 by 2007. Well, I guess Acura had a nice run at the "most advanced awd system" but Audi will likely take back the throne.<p>I think that SH-AWD also sends more hp to outerwheel when you're turning which makes it actually spin faster. Have fun tareing up those tires! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Audi also recieved a lot of praises for the A6's and A8's auto transmission, but transmissions in particular are rarely developed by car companies. It's rather the suppliers who develop them like Santeno said. I don't know who developed the DSG thats featured in VW cars. I'm guessing it was co-developed with some tranny company. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/nixweiss.gif" BORDER="0"> <p><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Comrade at 9:39 PM 3/30/2005</i>

JBlair
03-30-2005, 09:37 PM
1. Audi for its new Quattro Sport AWD, Engine development program, and the DSG transmission (which was developed by Audi)<br>2. Nissan-Cool Euro/Japanese designs<br>3. Toyota-manufacturing processes (Quality doesn't really factor because its gone down a lot due to the company's rapid growth)<p>O, and just briefly; many automakers develop their own transmissions, including Mercedes-Benz (porsche, among others, use MB transmissions), GM (Hydramatic and many others), and some other automakers

KebabGud
03-30-2005, 11:11 PM
EDIT: oh and by the way .. the DSG system was developed by Devotek in norway.. and sold to audi..<br>Toyota, Porche and alfa romeo has also goten there hands on that system..<br>so for all ve know .... the automatic tranny in the new GS and IS might just be a DSG tranny :P<p>so again.. Devotek in Norway developed the tranny.. and it is made by Sachs og LUK in Germany, and used in/will be used in Audi`s, Toyota`s (and lexus), porsche`s and Alfa`s <p>Audis Quattro is ... NOT QUATTRO!<br>they use carppy systemt smad by volvo and large 4x4 systems..<p>oh and i am not mixing Hondas SH-AWD and Toyotas..<br>Honda does at the moment have the most advanced AWD system that is true .. NOW<br>but Toyotas new system is far more advanced and is sayd to be the next so calld "quattro"..<br>the worst part is i cant even remember what it i calld :P<br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by KebabGud at 8:20 AM 3/31/2005</i>

Top Secret
03-31-2005, 01:23 AM
Actually, Audi's new Quattro featured in the RS4 is going to be a cracker. And I though the DSG was developed by Ricardo in the UK?<p>And yes, a lot of manufacturers make their own transmissions, MB and Toyota come to mind. But also a lot use outside companies such as BMW, Audi and Jaguar which use ZF and Getrag systems.

KebabGud
03-31-2005, 02:22 AM
most manufacturers buy other trannys..<br>toyota is a good eksample..<br>they make the cheap simple trannys them self .. but when they want moer then basic they go to other makers.. <br>(like devotek and gestag)

Top Secret
03-31-2005, 02:29 AM
Well, the six-speed automatic used in the LS430 is made by Aisin, a division of Toyota. And one can guess from that Aisin is heavily used for other Toyota models.

KebabGud
03-31-2005, 03:14 AM
the SMT tranny in the MR2/S is from devotek..<br>the six-speed manual used in the supra was from Gestag ..<br>they use what ever they find :P<br>so why the ... dont thay buy a tranny for the new diesels .. its odd...

Blackraven
03-31-2005, 07:11 AM
1) Toyota group - leading in sales, very high resale value, TONS of engine choices and they're currently the best Japanese car maker in the world and could even be the world's best (if they continue to play their cards right)<br>2) Nissan group - the VQ engine and great engines, the Nissan Fuga/Infiniti M, great designs, superb interiors and are the MASTERS OF CVT TECHNOLOGY*<br>3) Honda/Acura - SH-AWD, produces great and reliable engines, Hard Disk-based Navigation systems<br>4) VW group (VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda) - usage of DSG tranny system, making Tiptronic/Multitronic a standard feature on their cars, quattro AWD technology (one of the first in the world, I think)<p><br>I won't say anything on other auto makers because that would be a very long list.<p><br>*Nissan has been the "Masters of CVT technology" prankly because:<br>-they were the first ones to use such (every since the late 80s)<br>-there research and development for CVT technology is constantly continuing <br>-they are one of the very few manufacturers that regularly use CVT tranny on their vehicles<br>-they will be developing a newer version of their CVT (developed by Nissan-owned Jatco Ltd.) that will use a chain instead of a regular belt.<p><br>I think they are currently at the forefront of CVT technology because even MBs CVT are just new (like the 7GTRONIC and the CVTs used in newer models)<p>With that said about Nissan's CVT, I wanna ask some other questions:<p>-Who is currently the leader in diesel engine technology? (MB or BMW)<p>and<p>-What is DSG??? (some SMG-type system, a tiptronic-type mechanism)<p>

KebabGud
03-31-2005, 07:26 AM
diesel is BMW .. hands down..<br>they are the only ones that make diesel engines that feels like gasoline engines..<br>(sounds like it too...)<p>DSG is .. well .. lets just say i tlike this .. it uses 2 clutches... so it always ready to change gears.. so its fast..

Comrade
03-31-2005, 02:23 PM
yes, the DSG (Direct Shift Gearbox) pre-selects the next gear and at that point it runs on two gears (thats why it needs two clutches) before it lets go of the lower gear and continues with the next. It's really clever and refined as well. Faster than a manual. <p>I didn't know some many other companies use DSG, but they might call it differently... - different abreviations...<br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>KebabGud</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Audis Quattro is ... NOT QUATTRO!<br>they use carppy systemt smad by volvo and large 4x4 systems..</TD></TR></TABLE><br>what? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/1zhelp.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>

KebabGud
03-31-2005, 03:06 PM
what Audi calls Quattro today is Haldex and Torsen..

Cozz
03-31-2005, 08:12 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>KebabGud</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">diesel is BMW .. hands down..<br>they are the only ones that make diesel engines that feels like gasoline engines..</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Are you OK? You don't know the E320 is diesel a until you see the CDi in the back or the the owner tells you. Personally, MB has the better diesel worlwide.

Top Secret
03-31-2005, 08:56 PM
In my view, MB is lagging behind in the diesel stakes currently, BMW and the French manufacturers are leading by a mile with the diesels. But, after they showed their tri-turbo diesel engines, I'm willing to change my decision.

Fcuke
03-31-2005, 10:46 PM
BMW is way ahead. In disign, comfort, development, luxury, engine.<p>Gotta love em! :D

anonms
04-01-2005, 02:11 AM
What about Toyota's D4-D Avensis concept thing with the clean powe diesel?<p>I'm sure the Europeans still win at diesels.<p><br>I'd say Toyota's leading with their hybrids. Hydrogen fuel cells use hybrid components, from what I've read, and, as we've all heard, many companies plan to use Toyota's technology. If that doesn't indicate a leader, then I dunno what does.

KebabGud
04-01-2005, 03:13 AM
Toyotas new diesel has not been testet by anyone so no one knows just how good that engine is.... and it no longer a consept..<br>the engine is the same as in the IS220d..<p>but most of BMWs diesel engines feels like gass.. sounds like gass and preforms better then gass..<br>(yes.. the 320d is faster then the 320i.. (E90) same with the 120d and 120i)<p>but... BMW comfort? .. what is that? ohh yes .. its the thing that destroys the handeling... <br>nice one

Hornbag
04-01-2005, 05:52 PM
Design wise - BMW. For all the people who said they hateed the 7 series, you can see a LOT of BMW design rubbing off on other brands...<p>Tech - Audi. With DSG, it has the best transmission in da world. Then in the 80's when they devoloped quatro, that would lead to such an array of cars with AWD! That started the car/AWD trend.<p>But i will give an honorable mention to the Lexus LS400. That car kicked BMW and Mercs ass so bad, and it established such a great brand. An after over 10 years, we r getting style to go with the quailty!!!

chaserolls
04-01-2005, 08:16 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Comrade</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think Audi's quattro was the best until Acura came along with its "Smart Handling-AWD". The Acura RL can shift torque to each wheel and is basically the Torsen3 while the quattro in all models features Torsen2 which shifts torque to both front and both rear wheels. The new RS4 that debuted recently has the Torsen3 which could be better or as good as SH-AWD. All Audis will have T3 by 2007. Well, I guess Acura had a nice run at the "most advanced awd system" but Audi will likely take back the throne.<br><i>Modified by Comrade at 9:39 PM 3/30/2005</i></TD></TR></TABLE><p>I'm sorry . . . but how does 'most advanced awd system' translate to the best AWD system? Audi's T3 AWD system is almost a carbon copy of the system subaru has been using since 2002. If anyone has the best AWD system, i'd vote for subaru because it's been tried and true among other things. I think they are the real innovators in the AWD arena<p>in a recent test between a sti and an evo MR, the STI posted identical 0-60 times when all 4 of it's wheels were on tarmac versus when 2 of it's wheels were on very loose dirt and the other 2 were on tarmac. <p>i'm not trying to get into a contest or anything, but just because a company says 'most advanced this' or 'most advanced that,' it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best, it just means it has the newest bells and whitles that have yet to be proven reliable<p>as far as who is truely ahead of it's times, I vote for toyota

Comrade
04-01-2005, 10:41 PM
I didn't exactly say that any of them is THE best, but advanced(that's why I quoted it in the last sentence). As you say most advanced doesn't mean best.<br>I knew Subaru was good, but I didn't know how good. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">

Blackraven
04-02-2005, 10:12 AM
Hmm.... didn't know Subaru's AWD system was one of the best. <p>I don't what makes their AWD technology class-leading. Maybe someone make care to explain more about the "Symmetrical AWD" technology of Subaru (either here or maybe in another thread).<p><br>I'm also looking for other manufacturers that already utilize AWD/CVT (or any other highly-specialized transmission) aside from Audi (VW group).<p><br>

AM2
04-02-2005, 10:45 AM
Citroen...<br><IMG SRC="http://img204.exs.cx/img204/1826/c4robot20kc.jpg" BORDER="0"><br>just kidding. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/laugh2.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>....But i'd say Citroen would be one of those ahead of their time.<br>from their suspension to their retro-futuristic french styling.<br><IMG SRC="http://www.autoindex.org/images/cars/3690/3980/norm_10_C4_Berlina_&_Coupe_2004_Eu.jpg" BORDER="0"><br><IMG SRC="http://automobilemag.com/auto_shows/2005_geneva/0503_citroen_c6_01.jpg" BORDER="0"><p>

SV
04-02-2005, 11:07 AM
style-wise, carmakers that are ahead are:<p>1. citroen<br>2. BMW<br>3. renault<p>technology-wise:<p>1. toyota (hybrids, hydrogen cars)<br>2. GM/honda/mercedes-benz (hydrogen cars)<br>3. BMW (fancy engines, iDrive may not be very intuitive now but the concept is brilliant IMO)

Cozz
04-02-2005, 02:26 PM
Safety: Mercedes-Benz <br>Engines: Honda<br>Diesel engines: Mercedes-Benz<br>Newest technology: Toyota on hybrids/ MB on fuel cells.<p>

Krypton
04-02-2005, 02:57 PM
Design-Nissan/Infiniti<br>Safety-MB/Volvo<br>Technology-BMW/Infiniti

Hornbag
04-02-2005, 08:18 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>SV3</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BMW (iDrive may not be very intuitive now but the concept is brilliant IMO)</TD></TR></TABLE><p>AGREED! I mean now we have Audis and Mercs versions, and it will be likely there will be lots more versions on cheaper cars soon! But then again, im a HUGE fan of iDrive... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">

Top Secret
04-02-2005, 08:28 PM
Oh yeh, I think BMW is probably one of the leaders in hydrogen-fuelled cars, as seen with the H2R concept shown a while back - and the 745h should be cool when it comes out soon.

anonms
04-03-2005, 06:11 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Hornbag</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>AGREED! I mean now we have Audis and Mercs versions, and it will be likely there will be lots more versions on cheaper cars soon! But then again, im a HUGE fan of iDrive... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Personally, I prefer the Prius' system with a touch screen. Feels more high-tech.

mzoltarp
04-04-2005, 05:41 AM
This is an interesting question because the car companies that are "ahead of the times" are the pace setters for the times. Here goes:<p>Toyota and Honda for hybrid powertrain technology. These two will have hybrid everything before GM gets around to studying the concept (mild exaggeration).<p>Hyundai is coming up fast in terms of product, quality and reliability at a price value. It would not surprise me to find out that they have hybrid technology in the wings.<p>In general I think that the traditional engineering leaders (Mercedes, BMW, Porsche) have been eclipsed by the Honda/Toyota people.<br>

Santeno
04-04-2005, 12:42 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Top Secret</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh yeh, I think BMW is probably one of the leaders in hydrogen-fuelled cars, as seen with the H2R concept shown a while back - and the 745h should be cool when it comes out soon.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Hydrogen powered cars in the manner that BMW presented them are not much of an engineering breakthrough, nor are they particularly environmentally friendly. They are IC engines, just like a gasoline engine, with modifications in fuel storage, delivery and injection. The problem is on how you get Hydrogen. either you get it from electrolisys (which requires electricity, most likely produced by a fossil fuel powered plant - and you get less power out of the hydrogen than you had to put into the electrolisys reaction), or you derive it from hydrocarbons. Either way, you are still stuck using fossil fuels for no real measurable net gains (except maybe the potential for phenomenal explosions of your on-board hydrogen storage system).<p>Sorry, but this is no engineering breakthrough. A reall engineering breakthrough would be if someone develops a way of developing large amounts of electricity that do not depend on some type of mechanical force or chemical storage device.

sc43018
04-10-2005, 06:38 PM
agreed....kind of, the problem is mainly the energy source of which needed to put electrolisys into 'action' shall we say is difficult (lack of better word) as well as impractical. but hydrogen engines do provide for a large fuel source to replace the uneconomical gasoline. <p>but was the 745h def will not be 'coming out soon' <br>BMW, in my opinion, is releasing their progress with hydrogen technology (which, although not necessarily a breakthrough, is something we can look forward to with some huge changes) to increase brand appeal. Where any BMW exists, they are met with other models from other brands with brave attempts at a BMW competitor. Why not buy a BMW, and support their goal to support the globe?<p>but for this reason, before i was beat to it, is why I believe BMW is way ahead of its time, a step ahead of the game in terms of producing a car with an alternative fuel source? that outdoes any hybrid if you ask me

Superfresa
04-10-2005, 07:45 PM
There are no manufacturers out there that can claim they are well ahead of times in everything. Some may be very well in several aspects, but then not in all...<p>Nissan, say, could be ahead of times in design (for some people, not for me) but Its obsolete in other features. Have you seen a Sentra, or a Patrol?<p>eg. I'm the one who would claim that Land Rover, with the LR3's and Range Rover's technology is well ahead of times and it is. But then have a look at the Freelander and you'll see why it can't claim this either. Not to mention that the Defender despite being more than up to date mechanically, has a 21 year old design...<p>The same applies to Audi, MB, BMW, etc. They can claim some features are ahead of times, but in others, they are behind. It applies to every car there is of any manufacturer.<p>The war is too tight to have any car well ahead of times.

Cozz
04-11-2005, 05:03 AM
How does anyone say BMW is in the lead in Hydrogen when MB is already selling them? They have the most Hydrogen cars on the road.

Hornbag
04-11-2005, 05:15 AM
And here i am thinking hydrogen is a huge and great thing, it sounds like a load of crap now!

sc43018
04-11-2005, 02:44 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Cozz</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How does anyone say BMW is in the lead in Hydrogen when MB is already selling them? They have the most Hydrogen cars on the road.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>what hydrogen car do they have on the road? one of the very first hydrogen fueling stations just opened in america in the very recent months..... i just mb and their hydrogen models out already hard to believe<p>and if you look at a car company based upon EVERY car in the lineup, then that would make nearly every car company behind the times.... no car manufacturor has every car with every bit ahead of its time... tech on todays vehicles changes with the intro of every new car, it seems<br>

Cozz
04-11-2005, 07:19 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>sc43018</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>what hydrogen car do they have on the road? one of the very first hydrogen fueling stations just opened in america in the very recent months..... i just mb and their hydrogen models out already hard to believe<p>and if you look at a car company based upon EVERY car in the lineup, then that would make nearly every car company behind the times.... no car manufacturor has every car with every bit ahead of its time... tech on todays vehicles changes with the intro of every new car, it seems<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>I know for a fact that DCX sold them already for commercial use. Meaning the stations is within their property. I believe MB sold them in buses as well and some cars.<p>This is just a link without doing too much homework. I think DCX Media has all the info.<p><A HREF="http://www.automotive.com/news/25/6532" TARGET="_blank">http://www.automotive.com/news/25/6532</A>

SV
04-12-2005, 08:11 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Fcuke</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BMW is way ahead. In disign, comfort, development, luxury, engine.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>don't you just love BMW gushers?<p>i know that was old, but i had to say something =P<p>anyway, looking at my list, i think honda should also be noted for their engine expertise. for example, the first diesel engine they've ever made is also (from the reviews i've read) one of the best on the market.

Nick
05-03-2005, 10:46 AM
as far as performance cars go I want to say the vette is ahead of it's time, yet it still uses older technologies such as leaf springs and pushrod engines, yet it gets great mpg, it is fast, it is affordable, it is everything anyone would want in a performance car...really the only thing that comes close to it is the viper which is priced 20-30 grand more and doesnt handle quite as well nor is it as nice to drive (I have never driven one, but i have heard they are prety unfriendly, and one look at the interior, well it's not pretty). I mean, if car manufacturers could come close to producing a car like the vette for the same price rang don't you think they would do it? The corvette for it's price probably makes it the worlds best performance car...are there better cars? of course, but you'll be paying a whole hell of a lot more for them...

Superfresa
05-03-2005, 06:02 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Nick</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yet it still uses older technologies such as leaf springs and pushrod engines, </TD></TR></TABLE><p>WOAH WOAH did I understand correctly? wait wait... The Chevrolet Corvette still uses <I><B>LEAF</B></I> Springs? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/scared.gif" BORDER="0">

sc43018
05-03-2005, 06:51 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Nick</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">as far as performance cars go I want to say the vette is ahead of it's time, yet it still uses older technologies such as leaf springs and pushrod engines, yet it gets great mpg, it is fast, it is affordable, it is everything anyone would want in a performance car...really the only thing that comes close to it is the viper which is priced 20-30 grand more and doesnt handle quite as well nor is it as nice to drive (I have never driven one, but i have heard they are prety unfriendly, and one look at the interior, well it's not pretty). I mean, if car manufacturers could come close to producing a car like the vette for the same price rang don't you think they would do it? The corvette for it's price probably makes it the worlds best performance car...are there better cars? of course, but you'll be paying a whole hell of a lot more for them...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>what about MB and the SLK55.... similiar performance, kicks its tail end in luxury, design (opinion), and its hard top convertible beats out even the targa in terms of versatility...if you eliminate the taxes on foreign imported cars, yet retain the german build quality, and the shipping costs, the SLK55 could potentially undercut the vette in terms of price, yet still provide for an everyday luxury cruiser.<p>as it stands, i believe the vette DOES cost less, but i would put forth a couple grand for an MB over a chevy anyday. so i have to disagree, the vette is not ahead of any other car company, it just happens to be a fast car at a good price, just not the ONLY one

Nick
05-03-2005, 08:32 PM
its not just a fast car, it's a good looker, it handles great, it is a very well engineered car. For around 45 grand it is a steal and can almost be considered a supercar, and the C6 ZO6 is a supercar which is still atleast 10 grand cheaper than a viper yet can hang with the best...I have seen a vid of a C6 ZO6 pulling low 11's in the quarter in fairly bad track conditions, cold overcast and in a bit of a headwind, the car wasn't sticking as well as it could...I agree the slk55 is a nice car, but it is also heavier than the vette weighing it at 3397 (i think) pounds while the coupe vette weighs 3179 and the convertible weighs 3199, and it isn't as quick as the vette is, the vette does 0-60 around 4.2 seconds and the qurter in 12.5-12.7 and the slk55 0-60 at 4.9 and between 12.5 and 13 for the quarter...they are both close, but as far as performance...the C6 pulls etween .95 and .98 on the skidpad from what I've gathered, I am assuming the slk55 is in the same range, can't find the skidpad on it...the slk55 starts around 60 grand doesn't it? I personally like the vette's styling over the slk's but thats just me, I like the interior of the vette, though obviously the slk has a nicer interior, but the vette has cool features (not sure if the slk has this) such as heads up display and also adjustable suspension modes (depending on the suspension you have)...now, if you're looking into buying a great sportscar, sure you can go buy the slk which starts about 10-15 more than a vette, and in some cases you may be getting more, as far as performance goes, maybe not as much, but deffinitely more in the luxury segment, ubt if you really want to get into it, you can use that 10-15 grand you saved buying the vette over the slk and if you really want the luxury you can have interior work done on your car for a few grand, and then still have enough to send it into LPE to get some performance modifications done to the vette to make it the fastest, best performing car on the road hands down...

Superfresa
05-04-2005, 01:26 PM
Yes but does it REALLY have leaf springs?

Santeno
05-04-2005, 01:44 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Superfresa</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes but does it REALLY have leaf springs?</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Sure does. I put together some bits an pieces I found on the web to explain the resoning behind them:<p>The front has a double wishbone arrangement while the rear has a transverse composite leaf spring system. The result is a simple, lightweight system that gives more roll stiffness - resistance to roll - than coil springs. Also, the spring rate is progressive, so it irons out big bumps in the road almost as easily as little ones. To save weight, the double wishbones front and rear are aluminum; of course, the composite leaf springs are light, too. <p>Corvettes have been using leaf springs since 1963. Transverse mounted rear composite leaf springs have been found in Corvettes since 1984. Prior to that they used steel springs.<p>Here is a pic of what a composite leaf spring looks like.<p><IMG SRC="http://www.bettercart.com/v4files/vettedesk/CompositeSpringKit.JPG" BORDER="0"><p>Don't think that this is what you find on the rear of a Pick-up truck. Obviously they work well. No one would argue that a corvette is a poor performer because of them.<br>

Superfresa
05-04-2005, 01:57 PM
OUCH! That's America's pride? A LEAF SPRUNG sports car? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/scared.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/scared.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>I can't believe this isn't a joke....<p>Oh: <p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Santeno</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br> The result is a simple, lightweight system that gives more roll stiffness - resistance to roll - than coil springs. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>I'm pretty sure the Corvette isn't a bad performer, but I'm absolutely sure that claiming Leaf's are better than normal suspension's isn't the acurest thing either...<p>wow, I'm really surprised.

Santeno
05-04-2005, 02:06 PM
I don't think that was claimed anywhere.

Superfresa
05-04-2005, 02:18 PM
Well, I thought that's what you were claiming because it says that it "Gives more roll stiffness than coil springs". <p>Also Is your above post what YOU think about the Corvettes suspension or is it like taken from an article or something?

Santeno
05-04-2005, 02:30 PM
It's a composite from several corvette information sites and from the TRW (the leaf's patent holder) and the manufacturer of the springs. None of it is my personal opinion. Hence the reason for the disclaimer at the begining of my post. Either way, It's hard to argue against the choice of technology, when the Corvette's overall performance is compared against that of most of the world's top sports cars (the vette ranks right up there). I guess that if done right modern takes on old technology can have just as valid a place today as the fancy new tech.

sc43018
05-04-2005, 02:34 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Nick</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its not just a fast car, it's a good looker, it handles great, it is a very well engineered car. For around 45 grand it is a steal and can almost be considered a supercar, and the C6 ZO6 is a supercar which is still atleast 10 grand cheaper than a viper yet can hang with the best...I have seen a vid of a C6 ZO6 pulling low 11's in the quarter in fairly bad track conditions, cold overcast and in a bit of a headwind, the car wasn't sticking as well as it could...I agree the slk55 is a nice car, but it is also heavier than the vette weighing it at 3397 (i think) pounds while the coupe vette weighs 3179 and the convertible weighs 3199, and it isn't as quick as the vette is, the vette does 0-60 around 4.2 seconds and the qurter in 12.5-12.7 and the slk55 0-60 at 4.9 and between 12.5 and 13 for the quarter...they are both close, but as far as performance...the C6 pulls etween .95 and .98 on the skidpad from what I've gathered, I am assuming the slk55 is in the same range, can't find the skidpad on it...the slk55 starts around 60 grand doesn't it? I personally like the vette's styling over the slk's but thats just me, I like the interior of the vette, though obviously the slk has a nicer interior, but the vette has cool features (not sure if the slk has this) such as heads up display and also adjustable suspension modes (depending on the suspension you have)...now, if you're looking into buying a great sportscar, sure you can go buy the slk which starts about 10-15 more than a vette, and in some cases you may be getting more, as far as performance goes, maybe not as much, but deffinitely more in the luxury segment, ubt if you really want to get into it, you can use that 10-15 grand you saved buying the vette over the slk and if you really want the luxury you can have interior work done on your car for a few grand, and then still have enough to send it into LPE to get some performance modifications done to the vette to make it the fastest, best performing car on the road hands down...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>the SLK55 doesnt start at 60, i think it is just a few grand over the vette (the newest Car&Driver explains) and is a hardtop convertible versus softtop. Yes, it is a bit slower, but that was not my point. the vette is a great car, no doubt, it just is, by no means, ahead of its time. I love both the SLK and corvette, but i couldnt claim that either are ahead of their time

Cozz
05-04-2005, 08:02 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Superfresa</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OUCH! That's America's pride? A LEAF SPRUNG sports car? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/scared.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/scared.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>I can't believe this isn't a joke....<p>Oh: <p>I'm pretty sure the Corvette isn't a bad performer, but I'm absolutely sure that claiming Leaf's are better than normal suspension's isn't the acurest thing either...<p>wow, I'm really surprised.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Why do you think leaf springs are bad?<p>Just wait until you find out the F1 cars still use torsion bars. Something found in mostly classics and older 4x4's

Superfresa
05-05-2005, 02:55 PM
carts pulled by donkeys use leaf springs...<p>F1 cars suspension have 5mm movement, what else could they use? Its stable though. And it isn't exactly only torsion bars either. <p>Corvette is a car for the roads, it should really have up to date technology made to maneouvre accordingly, or at least technology from the last third part of the past century.<p>I now see why american pickups aren't obsolete. Not even american supercars are on coils yet...

Nick
05-05-2005, 09:43 PM
Who says american pickups are obsolete? And anyways, the corvette handles amazingly, taking that into consideration, obviously the leaf springs work and work well...even if they are "obsolete" as you put them...but then you cana rgue that pushrods are obsolete also...well, go look up some info the the LS2 which gets better mpg than even some japanese engines, or better yet LS7 which has a redline at 7000 rpm...you can go on all day arguing what's obsolete and what's not...but obviously the technology in the vette is tried and true, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it...I mean, isn't it obvious the vette can hold it's own? look at the C6R...sure, it came in 2nd and 3rd place at sebring (I believe) and the DB9R came in 1st, but that is only because the vette happened to break down and the engine had to be completely rebuilt from the ground up that very day basically...and don't say it broke down because of inferior technology...it could've happened with any car...but the vette has always swept up the competition when it races...

Santeno
05-06-2005, 06:40 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Superfresa</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">carts pulled by donkeys use leaf springs...<p>F1 cars suspension have 5mm movement, what else could they use? Its stable though. And it isn't exactly only torsion bars either. <p>Corvette is a car for the roads, it should really have up to date technology made to maneouvre accordingly, or at least technology from the last third part of the past century.<p>I now see why american pickups aren't obsolete. Not even american supercars are on coils yet...</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Fresa, please take the baseless bashing to TCC's forums. Just because technology is old, if executed properly, it doesn't make it inferior. Call it what you will but for this car, this set-up works VERY WELL. I've read many complaints about the C6's and C5's interior fit and finish, but I've heard nothing but praise for it's ride and handling characteristics (for the type of vehicle it is). Also, to say that "Not even american supercars are on coils yet..." is down right ignorant. You have equated all american made sportscars to this one vehicle. What about Vipers, Moslers, Panoz's, Saleens, Shelby's, etc?<p>I wonder what you have to say about the vette's <A HREF="http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_flooring/" TARGET="_blank"><b>balsa-wood-cored composite passenger compartment floor</b></A>? Yes, I said wood...<p><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Santeno at 1:39 PM 5/6/2005</i>

Superfresa
05-06-2005, 01:24 PM
Oh sorry, you both misunderstood me, but it's my fault, I didn't express properly what I meant to say.<p>I don't bash the Corvette, I think it's a great car (don't we all?), that was not my intention. I was surprised that the car uses leafs which ARE obsolete, but I meant with this what Nick said: They may be obsolete, but they work just fine.<p>Sure, I do believe there are cars that probably handle better than the Corvette for the same price, but that doesn't mean that the Corvette can't "hold its own" as Nick said, even if it's not exactly it's strength. <p>And about the engines I've never said a word complaining about them. Nor do I have anything to say about the Balsa floor (*sidenote: hey doesn't Kenworth use that too?*).<p>Sure the Vette would be a lot better IMO with a more updated suspension, but I didn't mean to bash it either.<p>And yes it would've been ignorant to state all American cars aren't on coils yet, which is not what I meant although I can see that I clearly didn't exactly make my point. MY point was that the Corvette is sort of an American Pride in a way, as are pickup trucks, and out of the two one would expect the Vette to switch to coils before the pickups do (not that pickup manufacturers are sitting there waiting for it to happen to switch into coils themselves). <p>Hope I made a bit clearer that I didn't intend to bash the corvette or doubt its reputation, just was surprised of how old they are although "old" things also work (as Nick pointed out).

Nick
05-06-2005, 02:45 PM
in some cases, even older cars truly are better than their newer counterparts in some cases...take the E30 M3 for example...I bet if you were to take one of those out on a track along with an e36 and e46 m3, the e30 I have a feeling would outhandle them both...

Cozz
05-06-2005, 06:16 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Superfresa</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">carts pulled by donkeys use leaf springs...<p>F1 cars suspension have 5mm movement, what else could they use? Its stable though. And it isn't exactly only torsion bars either. <br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>I guess the point flew past your head. It doesn't matter if it's 1mm, 5mm or 100mm. The point is old technology is still being used on the world's best racing cars... isn't that odd?<p>PS. The MP4-19 uses a standerd double link bar. Nothing real special when you hold it in front of you.

Superfresa
05-06-2005, 07:53 PM
I can't say anything because I declare myself ignorant in F1 suspension, so I'll just believe you...