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View Full Version : Does Lexus need the ES?


IcedG35
03-16-2005, 03:42 PM
While a lot of car manufacturers are adding new models, like the Mercedes CLS, that create their own segment, Lexus has two "midsize" sedans out. Do you guys think the GS300 should replace the ES and therefore make the Lexus lineup much sportier and all R/AWD. It would be similar to how the M35 replaced Infiniti's I35. ALso, what exactly does the ES compete with? I would think it would be the GS that competes with the 5 series and E class.

SV
03-16-2005, 04:14 PM
well, the ES doesn't compete directly with the 5er and e-class, but i'm sure they're cross-shopped often. it used to compete with the acura TL, infiniti I35, and chrysler 300M. now the infiniti's been discontinued and the chrysler and acura have gotten sportier and are trying to compete more with german cars like the c-class, A4, 3-series, and even the 5-series, e-class and A6. the ES still sells very well though, so even though it's something of a niche car now lexus will still keep it.

Krypton
03-16-2005, 04:19 PM
as SV said it does not compete directly with anything these days since most manufacturars have gone sporty. Its basically a entry level luxury car that favors luxury greatly over sport

KebabGud
03-16-2005, 05:47 PM
the ES is the dark shame of Lexus :P<br>Infiniti has totaly droped the idea of a FWD car..<br>why the hell cant Lexus get that into there head.. same with Honda and Audi.. COME ON!<br>

SV
03-16-2005, 05:59 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>KebabGud</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the ES is the dark shame of Lexus :P<br>Infiniti has totaly droped the idea of a FWD car..<br>why the hell cant Lexus get that into there head.. same with Honda and Audi.. COME ON!<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>the ES still sells in big numbers if i remember correctly, so it would be stupid to just drop it from the lineup.

Bluesman
03-16-2005, 06:36 PM
Yes, Lexus needs the ES and not just because I might be interested in the new design.<p>This car satisfies a need for a roomy and comfortable entry level luxury car, mid $30's range. Without it you need to buy an LS to get the same room and comfortable ride, and that's a bit too much for most people.<p>Lexus needs a reason for Buick and Chrysler shoppers to consider a Lexus. Their goal is to take market share from competitors like these and the ES makes that transition easier.<p>Besides, not everybody needs a sporty car. I think too many people on the web and in the media forget that average people want and need average cars.

Mindless T
03-16-2005, 07:06 PM
The real question is: do we even need Lexus???

IcedG35
03-16-2005, 07:19 PM
that's not a good question....<p>I feel like while the ES is definitely selling and Lexus is happy about that, in order to change the Company's image in the direction desired, which is sportier and more upperclass, it needs to either drop the ES or make it RWD, which willl also help with the bloated look.

Cozz
03-16-2005, 07:30 PM
The ES is a major part of the bread and butter, the RX is the other part. It would be stupid to drop it unless sales are low, wich they are not.<p>If I could change anything on it, it would be the Kia cup holders, some triming on it that doesn't deserve the Lexus badge and the ML audio system sounds like trash. The Toyota JBL/synthesis sounds way better.

Hornbag
03-17-2005, 12:21 AM
I dislike the current ES as its too Camry based. But i think they should keep it, it just needs replacing to be in line with the new styling and sportiness of Lexus.

AM2
03-17-2005, 01:33 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Bluesman</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, Lexus needs the ES and not just because I might be interested in the new design.<p>This car satisfies a need for a roomy and comfortable entry level luxury car, mid $30's range. Without it you need to buy an LS to get the same room and comfortable ride, and that's a bit too much for most people.<br></TD></TR></TABLE><br>The LS may be too much, but I think you skipped the GS300.<p>I guess they can get rid of it... Infiniti got rid of their FWD I35.<br>Must Lexus really keep ES? <br><B>Then they should add the 280bhp V6 of the Avalon to make an ES350!</B> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> <br>

Top Secret
03-17-2005, 01:57 AM
To put it simply; yes. I think they do need it, mainly because of the sales, although the problem of having the entry-level midsize sedan can easily fixed by putting a smaller engine into the GS to adopt the ES lineup.<p>And KebabGud's comment about Honda...it's not on.

Bluesman
03-17-2005, 06:37 AM
AM2,<p>The GS is too much $$$ as well and a little too sporty to be included in the same category as the ES and LS.

knicks125
03-17-2005, 07:01 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>KebabGud</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the ES is the dark shame of Lexus :P<br>Infiniti has totaly droped the idea of a FWD car..<br>why the hell cant Lexus get that into there head.. same with Honda and Audi.. COME ON!</TD></TR></TABLE><p>that was some insenstive comments you made but i know why, as much as how much you LOVE rwd, fwd does the job just as good, if not better. Don't keep telling us fwd is the end of the world just b/c you've had bad experiences with them - most cars in today's market are still fwd so stop complaining <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>please justify your reasoning as to why es is the dark shame of lexus, don't start something and not finish it <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bonk.gif" BORDER="0">

Naga Royal Guard
03-17-2005, 08:05 AM
the proper question is: <p><br><b> Does the ES need Lexus anymore? </b>

fockerRN
03-17-2005, 08:52 AM
Lexus absolutely needs the ES. The ES is an outstanding car and a great seller. I think many people feel Lexus doesn't need it because it isn't a sport sedan- it doesn't try to be nor does Lexus want it to. Ask anyone who owns an ES and they will tell you they love the car. The ride and quietness are unmatched. If you want a Lexus sport sedan, buy the IS. Just because a car has no real competitors does NOT mean that it is unnecessary in a company's lineup. Infiniti did not really distinguish the I35 well from the Maxima. When it came time for the redesign, the Altima and Maxima were far better deals than the I35, and I think Nissan realized there was little room for the I35. However, the Camry and ES are incredibly different (sans powertrain). Actually, the one car that Lexus needs to worry about regarding competition to the ES is the new Avalon.

Dan J.
03-17-2005, 11:04 AM
the ES may be an outstanding car and good seller but what is the point in having this car when toyota sells the equally outstanding and might I add more powerful Avalon for about the same price? If I had to choose between the Avalon and the ES I would choose the Toyota.

Flagship
03-17-2005, 01:54 PM
Most likely Lexus will not drop the ES any time soon since it was one of the first cars they ever sold and Lexus has pride in that kind of thing.Look at the old GS from 2003-2004 they only sold 8,000 of them, they didn't drop that one.<p>The ES is a good fwd car the same for the rest of the Japanese cars you just have to worry about the American ones...

CarMattZu777
03-17-2005, 03:36 PM
The ES is a good car, and I think Infiniti was wrong in its calim that they didnt need the I35. The reason the I35 didn't fare well is because it wasn't luxurious, looked odd, and was just a last gen Maxima. The new Maxima could be dressed up and fit really nicely into the Infiniti lineup, i'm surprised that Infiniti hasnt got that yet,

IcedG35
03-17-2005, 05:35 PM
I35 has no place in the Infiniti lineup. The Maxima is advertised as a sporty sedan and if you wanted a midentry sport sedan from INfintii, you already have the M35. The ES only works becasue it's not advertised as sport while the GS is; it's therefore just a question of whether Lexus should have a car that isn't advertised as sporty because it doesn't fit in with their new direction.

Mindless T
03-17-2005, 07:03 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Naga Royal Guard</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the proper question is: <p><br><b> Does the ES need Lexus anymore? </b></TD></TR></TABLE><br>Finally someone who knows what hes taking about <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">

LEXUS FAN!
03-19-2005, 03:45 PM
Lexus definently needs ES just as much as the ES needs Lexus. <p>It is probably the 2nd biggest selling Lexus', so it is very important

AM2
03-19-2005, 11:08 PM
If Toyota will stop rebadging JDM Toyotas as Lexus models, will there be a next generation ES300/330 aka Toyota Windom? <br>...Or will they drop the Toyota badged version? <p>If they want to keep it, I still say they must put the 280bhp V6 of the Avalon...

Naga Royal Guard
03-20-2005, 12:59 AM
should but a V12 in it

mzoltarp
03-20-2005, 07:00 AM
If Lexus wants to truly be an equal to BMW and Mercedes it should not have a tarted up Camry in its lineup. The next ES should be the next Camry. Toyota needs to make the Camry less plain Jane. The issue is not how many ES copies Lexus sells. The issue is the future of Lexus and they seem to be moving to sport/performance. The ES is Lexus old think.

Comrade
03-20-2005, 10:05 AM
They are not moving anywhere. The stay "soft", "creamy", "mild"... Only exception is the IS because it has to compete with the 3-series. I say keep the ES as long as it sells good. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>The Camry should stay the way it is. Y make styling of the car differ from the driving behavior. It's still the best selling sedan in North America.

KebabGud
03-20-2005, 11:52 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>AM2</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If Toyota will stop rebadging JDM Toyotas as Lexus models, will there be a next generation ES300/330 aka Toyota Windom? <br>...Or will they drop the Toyota badged version? <p>If they want to keep it, I still say they must put the 280bhp V6 of the Avalon...</TD></TR></TABLE><br>they have stoped...<p>

AM2
03-20-2005, 02:01 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>KebabGud</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>they have stoped...<p></TD></TR></TABLE><br>So it looks like the current Lexus ES300/330 will be the final generation for the ES since its just a rebadged Toyota Windom. <br>Not unless Toyota makes an exclusive "Lexus only" sedan based on the Camry's platform, sort of like an Acura TL.

KebabGud
03-20-2005, 02:30 PM
well ... is there going to be a new ES?<br>

Naga Royal Guard
03-20-2005, 03:42 PM
according to some, yes ; the new IS is going to be a really small car compared to the ES

Bluesman
03-20-2005, 05:21 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>KebabGud</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well ... is there going to be a new ES?<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Yes, word is an 07' ES 350, same engine as the new Avalon. I'm excited to find out what it will look like, I hope we will know something late this year with a spy shot.

Top Secret
03-20-2005, 06:12 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>AM2</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>So it looks like the current Lexus ES300/330 will be the final generation for the ES since its just a rebadged Toyota Windom.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Isn't the ES a rebadged Toyota Camry?

Krypton
03-20-2005, 06:13 PM
no it looks a lot like a camry but it isnt one, its called the windom in japan

Hornbag
03-21-2005, 12:09 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Krypton</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no it looks a lot like a camry but it isnt one, its called the windom in japan</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Oh..................intersting updat for me, didnt know dat, thanx <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/images/smilies/sponge.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Could have sworn that it was Camry based.

KebabGud
03-21-2005, 05:13 AM
it is :P<br>the windom and camry are twins :P