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View Full Version : Your thoughts on Saab and GM


zwei Biere bitte
03-12-2005, 04:11 PM
Well... <p>I honestly wish GM would back off on their campaigne to turn Saab into a more "mainstream" manufacture. Since the 9-2X went on sale in May or June I think it was, I have seen about 5 on the road, compared to at least 1 Impreza wagon every few days. I was looking through the auto section in the paper today, and there was a Saab dealer offering $5,000 cash back or 0% on all 2005 Saab 9-2X's. Also, when I was looking through the Consumer Reports April Auto Issue, it said that stability control and traction control would not be offered on the 9-7X, which completes throws away Saab's identity of making safe cars. Another problem I found is that in government crash tests, the 9-7X recieved 3 stars for driver frontal collision, and 4 for the passenger. I believe both the 9-3 and 9-5 have 5 stars in every single test. IMO, GM is completely ruining Saab by just rebadging other GM products as Saabs that sell for $3-5000 more than the vehicle they're based on. Notice how these cars are selling only in America, and not Europe? It seems like GM may not want to ruin Saab's identity in Europe, they just want the big bux from selling a luxury SUV here. I mean what's next, a 9-1 that's really just a rebadged Aveo? <p>

Superfresa
03-12-2005, 07:32 PM
Dunno, I think Saab needs some changes, but I'm not sure that in the way that has happened. I mean, when U think of Volvo, U think about safety. Jaguar= elegance, BMW, Merc = Luxury, etc, etc. But when U think of saab you dont really relate it to anything in particular. I think that needs to change somehow, but maybe not in the way they're trying to make it change

Hornbag
03-13-2005, 04:06 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Superfresa</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dunno, I think Saab needs some changes, but I'm not sure that in the way that has happened. I mean, when U think of Volvo, U think about safety. Jaguar= elegance, BMW, Merc = Luxury, etc, etc. But when U think of saab you dont really relate it to anything in particular.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I think personality when i think Saab.<p>I hate GM, i hate bob luts. Look what he has done. All Saab needed was all new cars, and they would start profiting back, but no, lets just rebadge a Subaru, oh, and a Chev! Yes, Amercians are dumb, they will buy it. Lest put huge bumpers on them, and make them look ugly! YES, i can already see the money.<p>Get a life Bob <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bangin.gif" BORDER="0">

Top Secret
03-13-2005, 04:40 AM
A hater of Bob Lutz eh? Well, I personally think he has done more good than harm - sure, he's probably put Saab down the gurgler, but that's no big loss (for me anyway), but he's done a hell of a lot of things which has made GM better as a whole, especially the Australian GM division, although you can also credit Peter Hanenberger for that.<p>But Saab, sure, they could've developed new vehicles, but frankly, it would've cost so much more than they would've liked and most probably sales of the cars wouldn't be too flash. Just look at the new 9-3. New bodystyle, same old jobbie as the Vectra underneath, but look, you don't see 9-3 sales going through the roof. Because of this, GM probably thought better and backed off and went to just rebadging the vehicles because ultimately it will generate more profits for Saab and deep down, that's what all carmakers only want right? Money.

AM2
03-13-2005, 08:00 AM
Saab needs a global entry level-car... specially in asia...<br>The North American only Saab 9-2 looks great... but its too expensive for a rebadged/Saab-nosed Subaru Impreza.<p>All I can say is Ford did a better job in giving the Volvo S40 and V50 their own identity... <p>I hope that GM gives the next Saab 9-2 its own identity... and I hope that it actually gets sold outside of North America.<p>

Dodger
03-13-2005, 08:30 AM
I think Saab would fare much better under the direction of a different leader, say Ford. Wouldn't a little Saab like the S40 look great? And they could share a lot of Volvo's safety tech while retaining their own character...

Tidal
03-13-2005, 09:18 AM
Although Ford got it right with Volvo, they did screw it up with Jaguar, so it's probably a more difficult thing than we can imagine. Still... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/angry.gif" BORDER="0"> What the hell have they been thinking all these years? They've been responsible for Saab for well over a decade now, and what do they have to show for it? Up to last year, 2 models! And now they have these rebadged things... But i'm still hopefull. GM seems to have finally come up to a plan for it's brands ( some at least, Opel, Caddy, Saturn, Daewoo ), i just wished they could have thought about it sooner, Saab is losing it's image and it's clients fast.<p>Btw, there's supposed to be a global 9-2 successor in 08/09. <br>

Hornbag
03-14-2005, 06:06 AM
Will it share a basic architecture or platform with Subaru?

knicks125
03-14-2005, 07:01 AM
I don't have problems with Saab, I just don't like its slogan, "state of independence" <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bonk.gif" BORDER="0">

zwei Biere bitte
03-14-2005, 12:18 PM
Since some of you don't seem to understand the purpose of this thread, let me clarify myself. What do you think of the way GM is handling Saab, with rebading vehicles, platform sharing, etc. ?

knicks125
03-14-2005, 12:29 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>zwei Biere bitte</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Since some of you don't seem to understand the purpose of this thread, let me clarify myself. What do you think of the way GM is handling Saab, with rebading vehicles, platform sharing, etc. ?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>On that issue, it's fine. As long as that's how GM wants to do them (rebadging, platform sharing), I have no problems with.<p>What I do have problem is that their cars don't standout, and seem to be a few years later than their competitors. On that 9-2x, give me a wrx instead, thank you <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif" BORDER="0">

RGAddison
03-14-2005, 08:01 PM
my thoughts are, that saab needs to make more interesting looking cars, like the ones they had in the 80's, those models said " I'm a unique person" now the current models say"I'm a boring yuppie who can't afford a bmw 5 series". I even remember a saab being in a movie in the 80's, thats when they were status symbols, like the 300's are now.<br>one last thought , I think that the saab models cost too much.

Nick
03-14-2005, 08:03 PM
As far as their cars standing out, I think they are neat looking cars...sporty and almost reminiscient of bimmers in some ways...If more people knew about them they would probably do pretty well, but it hasn't been up until recently where I have started seeing adverts for them...I have a feeling the 9-7x will draw some more people towards saab, just like the 9-2x has...and yes, I know the 9-2x has been a flop selling only 2154 thus far...but every little bit counts...<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Nick at 9:04 PM 3/14/2005</i>

Aidan
03-15-2005, 02:23 PM
my uncle owns a saab dealership and the 93 is sellin really well recently.....he was at a dealer thing in sweden recently and there IS going to be a 9-4 and a 9-9<br>

AM2
03-15-2005, 03:34 PM
Sharing platforms is ok... like the 9-3 and 9-5, they at least have some degree of Saab-ness in them. <br>Its a different case with the 9-2, I mean as a car its ok because the Impreza is a good car... but about it being a "Saab"? <br>They just changed the nose section and badges and they jacked up the prices... <br><B>Platform sharing is ok, rebadging is not!</B><br>

Nick
03-15-2005, 03:40 PM
I'm not sure about eh 9-2x but I know with the 9-7x it is rebadged, but while the car still looks like any other TB it is actually much different and has a lot of saab caharcteristic to it to the suspension, the interior, just about everything except the engine more or less...

zwei Biere bitte
03-15-2005, 07:16 PM
Sorry, I just don't see how the interior was a Saab job <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bangin.gif" BORDER="0"> <p><IMG SRC="http://www.saabusa.com/flash/97/gallery/enlarged/int1.jpg" BORDER="0"><br><IMG SRC="http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2003/Chevrolet/100086184/002463-E.jpg" BORDER="0"><p>I mean, shifter is the same, dash pretty much is, even the steering wheel.

Nick
03-15-2005, 08:39 PM
other than the steering wheel, everything is more or less saab-like...they even moved the ignition by the shifter, while the vents and console have a similar layout, everything is more refined and different looking. The door panels are completely different, the shifter looks totally different from my view...actually, here, just read this which is quoted from the head honcho himself...<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">By Bob Lutz<br>GM Vice Chairman<p>saab97x.jpg<br>Saab 9-7x<p>Tuesdays New York Times featured a story about the Saab-ness of the new Saab 9-7X SUV that raised a lot more questions than it answered. Let me see if I cant clarify the issue here.<p>As you may know, the vehicle is based on GMs midsize SUV (GMT360) platform. This practice is no different from many Toyota-to-Lexus, or Nissan-to-Infiniti transformations, particularly in utilities.<p>No one should have the impression that this is nothing but a re-ornamented TrailBlazer  especially after driving it. I can assure you we made certain the 9-7X both looks and acts like a Saab, with plenty of mechanical changes as well as cosmetic ones.<p>Although produced in Moraine, Ohio, along with TrailBlazers, Envoys, Rainiers and Ascenders, the 9-7X is by far the most differentiated, with special focus on making it an authentic drivers vehicle.<p>The 9-7X underwent extensive suspension modifications to give it a more responsive, European feel. It has stiffer springs and bushings, a larger front stabilizer bar, and revised shock valving, all of which required beefing up the frame and control arms to handle the increased loads. A quicker 18.5:1 steering gear reduces steering friction, and increases on-center feel. We also stiffened the front part of the frame with additional braces to boost steering response. High-speed stability was enhanced by a limited slip differential, coupled with Saab-specific 18-inch tires and suspension tuning, which included lowering the vehicle one inch. Larger diameter ventilated disc brakes in the front provide better brake pedal feedback.<p>It not only feels like a Saab, but looks like one too. We focused on fits and broke the mold in designing the front-end appearance. An integrated fascia on all-new front end sheet metal gives the truck a clean look with tight gaps and flush fits. A new chrome roof rack accepts existing accessories from the Saab portfolio.<p>Inside the cockpit, youll notice the zero gap skin-to-trim fits, low gloss surfaces, and beautiful graining created using cast-skin processing. We paid a lot of attention to interior details, even moving the controls to their trademark Saab locations. Dual stalk controls on the steering column include a new left-side control stalk for the headlights and the fog lamps and front wiper controls were moved to the new right-side stalk. The center console is not only 1OO% Saab in design and execution, but also features the famed ignition in the area where the Golden Retriever can turn it off.<p>The effort, which took nearly 2 1/2 years to complete, was to create a silent, refined, European-feeling sports-ute BASED ON the GMT 36O. Im confident we have created a great Saab.<br></TD></TR></TABLE>

Hornbag
03-16-2005, 12:13 AM
Ive never seen the inside, geez, it looks very Saab like IMO<br>

Nick
03-16-2005, 12:49 AM
and thats not even the best interior color combo imo...I really like the black and cream interior...I'll try and find it...oh here it is...well, this is a crummy shot, but I like the cream and black color combo look...<p><IMG SRC="http://www.carbc.com/news2/highres/97x-int2.jpg" BORDER="0">

bucket
03-16-2005, 05:51 AM
two words: cadillac cimarron

knicks125
03-16-2005, 12:52 PM
<A HREF="http://www.forbes.com/business/2005/03/15/cz_jf_0315flint2.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.forbes.com/business....html</A>

Nick
03-16-2005, 03:55 PM
it was bound to happen...I don't know anyone who didn't see this coming...the medical benefit costs are whats really killing them right now...oh well, hopefully if they were to file for chapter 11 then they might be able to start anew...

Hornbag
03-17-2005, 04:25 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Nick</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and thats not even the best interior color combo imo...I really like the black and cream interior...I'll try and find it...oh here it is...well, this is a crummy shot, but I like the cream and black color combo look...<p><IMG SRC="http://www.carbc.com/news2/highres/97x-int2.jpg" BORDER="0"></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Danm that looks good! makes me think twice bout wat i said b4!

knicks125
03-17-2005, 07:17 AM
One more thing about GM, they have way too many brands/models, they should really cut back; even if they cut their current production by half or more, they would still be profitable if they do it right, although not at current stage, where they just had a profit warning I think). <p>I think their whole fleet of cars are too big for them to manage, and most of them got to go anyway...and also they're wasting way too much money on commericials <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0">

knicks125
03-17-2005, 10:42 AM
Here is the article I was referring to:<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CBC News</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">GM issues grim profit warning; stock tanks<br>Last Updated Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:07:49 EST<br>CBC News<p>DETROIT - General Motors issued a stunning profit warning Wednesday, saying its 2005 profit will be less than half what it had forecast.<p>The world's largest automaker blamed tougher pricing competition and slumping sales in North America for much of its difficulties.<p>GM said it would lose $1.50 US per share in the first quarter. Its previous guidance had called for a break-even quarter. For fiscal 2005, the automaker said it would make $1 to $2 per share profit. Previously, it had forecast income of $4 to $5 per share.<p>GM shares took a huge hit on the NYSE  down $3.81 to $29.91 in early trading  a 52-week low. It was the worst performing stock among the 30 issues that make up the Dow Jones Industrial Average.<p>Merrill Lynch downgraded the company's stock from "neutral" to "sell."<p>GM's $50-billion worth of bonds are currently rated one notch above "junk" status. A rating downgrade, which is now a distinct possibility, would raise the company's borrowing costs.<p>"The competitive environment that we face in North America means we must continue to find ways to reduce our costs and grow revenue," said John Devine, GM's chief financial officer, in a statement.<p>"While we have made good progress in reducing costs over the last several years, the projected loss in North America reinforces our need to do more," he said.<p>Earlier this month, GM announced that its North American car and truck sales in February fell 12 per cent compared to February 2004.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nick
03-17-2005, 11:11 AM
I totally agree that they should start cutting back...I would love to see them make 5 well executed cars than 50 rebadged halk hearted attempts at vehicles...are they doing ebtter and better? yea, but it's not cutting it...I really think if they were to file for chapter 11 it would make them rethink everything they are doing now, they would drop some brands and start over basically with a clean slate...they are still working with the UAW to try to get back on this contract or something because right now they have over 5 billion in health care expenses, and going down to junk stock might help a little bit, but then again it may put them in more debt....GM needs to get itself redesigned and refreshed...get rid of all the damn bean counters, and get some young blood in there...Bob Lutz is very controversial, he has done a lot of good for the company, but obviously he hasn't done enough or what he has done isn't quite good enough...sure, he might have been great a long time ago but GM was desperate and they didnt have anyone so they pulled him out of retirement to run GM...We need to find some new blood with fresh ideas who know how to manage a corporation of this caliber in this day and age...

knicks125
03-17-2005, 01:16 PM
Agreed...well said <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">

dukedb9
03-22-2005, 07:23 PM
Yes well said.<p>WSJ is already speculating (in the face of all this poor economic news for GM) that GM has got to drop brands. It has too many brands for 25% of the market. It has been suggested that GM should drop one or *two* brand names and focus on the remainder.<p>I really hate to say it, but I think that Saab should be let go. I think that it has been totally mismanaged and if GM had not bought it, it may have thrived instead of tanked.<p>But GM did buy it. And as of March 2005, with GM in the financial state that it is in, the patient (Saab) is terminal. I just don't think there is enough money to get it back on track and profitable.<p>Plus, I think in Saabs case, it's a lose-lose situation. <p>Saab is special. Saab is small. It's quirky. The bigger it gets, the more that that special quality is diluted - it has to be to appeal to a broader market. And the more it is diluted, the less appealing it is to the core fans of Saab. I just don't see any way out of this, save for GM selling Saab or pulling the plug.<p>BTW, the other brand to go should be Buick - it can be phased out slowly. And yes, I'm saying pick Saturn over Saab, if you can believe it. Saturn's at a better price point vs. Saab. Always better to march up the food chain than down. Witness Mercedes.<p>GM on the whole needs to get scrappy like Hyundai or something. They're not the only game in town.

zwei Biere bitte
03-22-2005, 07:50 PM
Well actually, I read in an article in Business Week that if GM were to drop a brand or two, they would be Pontiac and/or Saab. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/angry.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>If GM were to try to drop the Saab brand though, I seriously doubt it would go though. I bet the Swedish government would intervene becasue not only does Saab provide quite a few jobs in Sweden, but go to Sweden, and about 70% or so of cars there are Volvos or Saabs. About half of those are Saabs. So even if GM did decide to drop GM, Sweden's government would probably prevent it somehow.

62Lincoln
03-23-2005, 06:28 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>zwei Biere bitte</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>If GM were to try to drop the Saab brand though, I seriously doubt it would go though. I bet the Swedish government would intervene becasue not only does Saab provide quite a few jobs in Sweden, but go to Sweden, and about 70% or so of cars there are Volvos or Saabs. About half of those are Saabs. So even if GM did decide to drop GM, Sweden's government would probably prevent it somehow. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>If that's the case, GM should close SAAB today, and invite the Swedish government to buy it out. The world needs another government owned car manufacturer. Anyone remember British Leyland?

boston
03-23-2005, 01:47 PM
Fords gotten alot more from Volvo than GM will ever get from SAAB. GM can do everything it needs in Europe with Opel/Vauxhall.<p><br>

mzoltarp
03-24-2005, 07:07 AM
I think GM has no vision for Saab so that Saab will prosper. Instead they are skinning Vectras, and renosing Subarus and Chevys. The 95 is ancient and there seems to be no replacement soon. It's sad.

zwei Biere bitte
05-26-2005, 09:50 PM
Well, so far I've seen basically no 9-2X's since... well ever. I honestly think that it is down in the drain in terms of sales. Not only because I never see them, but recently in the paper, I saw a dealer advirtising new 9-2X Aeros for $7700 off MSRB... wow. <p>Oh yeah, read in TCC that the next 9-5 will not be produced in Sweden, but instead in Germany. I bet within 10 years, there will be no big Saab offices in Sweden <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/crying.gif" BORDER="0">

KebabGud
05-30-2005, 09:27 PM
my siganture tells all you need to know ... about where i stand on the wholde GM/Saab thing