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JBlair
01-28-2005, 11:41 AM
Seeing as how it was banished from the Aura thread, since it had nothing to do with it, I thought I'd start the thread in here. I took the liberty of moving over most of the comments about it so we don't have to start over. <br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>hokman</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Who says cobalt isn't astra, everyone knows cobalt is the american version of astra. Look carefully and you can see that the cobalt is a astra with a boot which looks very ugly because they didn't even bother to revise the C-pillar to match the boot, unlike the new Bora (still has a unmatching round front. Otherwise I won't be buying cobalt coupe (NA exclusive, while europe gets the sports hatch). Anyways, it's the astra coupe that won btcc 4 years in a row (new record), probably due to not much competition (crappy civic type R's ). And here you can get the 2.2 standard whereas is europe it's top of the line. <p>Vectra is the best family car (more comfort than mondeo), but has been complained as not the best handling (why do u need best handling in a family hatch, i rather have the vectra's refinement of a benz e class). Vectra has also been complained of plain styling. But I don't think this Aura is significantly better looking than vectra, the astra lights on this car looks odd, although the side profile is the best saloon design i've seen lately. smooth and beautiful. But the vectra's angular rear looks more modern and cool. That saturn or whatever red badge, made the car look 10 times cheaper. Can someone chop on a opel or vauxhall front? Anyways the front with that huge lamps with orange indicator looks too odd. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/werd.gif" BORDER="0"> current vectra has a better front if not the side.</TD></TR></TABLE><br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Andre</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Guys, since it's well known the ION shares mechanics and running gear with the Cobalt, prehaps looking back at the ION's releases will clear this up....<p><br>Now, this is from a GM press release found <A HREF="http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/ION/2003/ionbigplans.shtml" TARGET="_blank">Here</A> but as Ascariss released above, the Astra is based on a revised version of the previous platform<p>http://www.adamauto.lv/opel/files/opel_astra_new_product_info.pdf#search='Opel%20Ast ra%20unveiling'<p>and I don't even have to quote this: It talks about improving an already proven Chassis<p><A HREF="http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2040413.014/page/4/opel/1.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.germancarfans.com/n....html</A><p>There will be no more talk of this</TD></TR></TABLE><br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>StephenKHone</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Okay I have to weigh in here! You are blind! The doors on the Cobalt and Astra are clearly totally different with a superficial styling similarity. They are both GM products so what do you expect? Btw I'm not so sure the door mirrors are the same either.<p>Look at the trailing edge of the rear doors. Absolutely and unequivocally different. Not even close. Open your eyes and admit, that at the very least your are wrong on this particular issue.<p>Now back to the Aura. Awesome design should sell like crazy!<p><br><i>Modified by StephenKHone at 11:55 PM 1/15/2005</i></TD></TR></TABLE><br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>_PiCASSO_</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Okay, I know I should drop the platform subject, but here's another example of same platform (DEW98) that don't have the same wheelbase length:<p>Lincoln LS 2,908mm (114.5") <br>Ford Thunderbird 2,723mm (107.2")<p>Ironically, the H-point of both vehicles is the same, even when the roofline of the Thunderbird is much lower than the LS (height of 1,323mm (52.1") vs 1,425mm (56.1"), respecitely). Bottom line, Ascariss, don't rely on wheelbase figures to indicate identical platforms.</TD></TR></TABLE><br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>hokman</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ascariss, I don't know why that you are so negative about the fact that the Astra is the Cobalt. As we all know, GM is reuniting worldwide, Catera same as Omega, Malibu same as Vectra, then logically Cobalt = Astra, right??<br> And as we all know, GM's american department cars are pretty horrible, cavalier, Grand Am, Grand Prix. GM America wants Opels to replace their cars, and they want people to know that they are Opels. Have you seen the Malibu ads? They want you to know that it's european car for American car price. <p> One more thing, is the Delta platform more expensive and better than the last gen Astra platform? If so, does it mean that Cobalt is even better than the already outstanding New Astra? <p>I'm not here to argue, i'm here to know the TRUTH, if the Cobalt is on Astra's platform, I'll be conviced to buy it, but if it only shares platform with the crap Ion, I won't. I think this goes for the same as many others. I don't care the potential for delta, as long as the cheap cobalt is based on a good car (astra), then people will buy it. <br>JBlair, update on us if you receive any news from GM, thanks. We all (including GM) don't want the Delta to remain a mystery. We all hope that it's what the Astra uses, and that Cobalt is as good as the Astra, because you couldn't buy an Astra in Canada or USA.<p>Lastly, why would someone choose to use the same body panels and doors and mirrors, on a car with different platform? That's what doubts your idea, Ascariss.<p><br><i>Modified by hokman at 11:15 PM 1/15/2005</i></TD></TR></TABLE>

JBlair
01-28-2005, 11:46 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>hakkinen</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ascariss the Cobalt is a previous generation Astra, which was produced in sedan version as well. So not only they share some componets but they are actually the same car. I just don't know if they share the same engines, as those that are used in Europe may be small for US. Interior is different as far as i remember.<p>@ndreas</TD></TR></TABLE><br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JBlair</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">These ARE NOT the same cars. The Cobalt rides on the new North American Delta Platform that also underpins the Saturn Ion, Chevy HHR, and will underpin several next-generation GM small cars. The Astra rides on a re-worked version of the last-generation Astra platform, which DOES NOT share any components with the Delta platform. Any similarity in looks is an accident and does not mean that they are the same car. (because the new Ford Fusion and Mondeo share similar door frames, does that automatically mean they are the same car?). </TD></TR></TABLE><br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>_PiCASSO_</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, it's going to be difficult to find a direct source from GM, but a very credible automotive industry source is Wards Auto World:<p><A HREF="http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_gm_aims_cobalt" TARGET="_blank">http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_gm_aims_cobalt</A>/<p>"There is reason to be optimistic.<B> Cobalt </B>marks the North America arrival of GMs global <B>Delta</B> platform, also used by <B>Adam Opel AG</B> for the German auto makers <B>Astra</B>  unveiled at the Frankfurt auto show in September. GMs other front- or all-wheel-drive global architecture, the midsize Epsilon platform, has generally been well received. "<p>But if that doesn't convince you and all the other skeptics, I don't know what will.<p>Nuf Said.</TD></TR></TABLE>

JBlair
01-28-2005, 11:48 AM
And to finally put GM's two-cents in, here is a reply directly from the media representative in charge of platform engineering:<br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Delta is a new, global vehicle architecture for GM small cars. It was<br>developed in close partnership between GM North American and GM Europe,<br>with significant contributions from GM Asia Pacific and GM Latin America<br>engineering organizations as well.<p>The first vehicles based on Delta were the Saturn ION and Chevrolet Cobalt,<br>with the upcoming Chevy HHR also using the same platform. The new Opel<br>Astra is not based off the Delta but the U.S. products do benefit from many<br>of Opel's learnings.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>From Robert Tripolsky, Manager, GM product communication-Small Cars

C6Dude
01-30-2005, 09:44 PM
I know, I know...we can't believe Wikipedia. However, look at what the article says:<p>Delta is General Motors' new compact front wheel drive automobile platform. The architecture was developed by Opel in Germany and was <U>based on</U> the Opel Astra. The platform <U>debuted</U> in the 2003 Saturn ION. <p>So, it seems as though Delta was a derivative of the current Astra platform. I guess they took the current one, made it better, and then called it Delta. So, I am assuming the new Astra will be on this platform then?<p><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Delta_platform" TARGET="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Delta_platform</A>

CalinG7
01-31-2005, 02:04 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>C6Dude</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">However, look at what the article says:<br>The architecture was developed by Opel in Germany and was <U>based on</U> the Opel Astra. The platform <U>debuted</U> in the 2003 Saturn ION. <p> So, I am assuming the new Astra will be on this platform then?<p><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Delta_platform" TARGET="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Delta_platform</A></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Why do you feel the need to twist words in order to make the article fit your preconceived notions? You said to look at what the article says, so try to follow your own advice. It says the Delta architecture was developed in close partnership BETWEEN GM North America and GM Europe, not BY Opel in Germany. Where in the article did you see those words? And it also says a bit further in the article that the new Astra is NOT based on Delta, which should have answered your last question. <p>This is exaclty what I and others have been saying for a while. Delta was intended to be GM's universal small car platform but after developing it, Opel decided it didn't quite fit their needs. The currently new Astra uses a revised version of the previous Astra chassis, and the plan was to develop a chassis together with Fiat for the Astra and Stilo, which would better suit European tastes. With all the turmoil between GM and Fiat right now, though, I don't know if those plans will still hold.

JBlair
01-31-2005, 09:24 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>C6Dude</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know, I know...we can't believe Wikipedia. However, look at what the article says:<p>Delta is General Motors' new compact front wheel drive automobile platform. The architecture was developed by Opel in Germany and was <U>based on</U> the Opel Astra. The platform <U>debuted</U> in the 2003 Saturn ION. <p>So, it seems as though Delta was a derivative of the current Astra platform. I guess they took the current one, made it better, and then called it Delta. So, I am assuming the new Astra will be on this platform then?<p><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Delta_platform" TARGET="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Delta_platform</A></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Uh, dude, look at what I posted <B>directly</B> from a GM employee. Delta is not related to Astra. It may have benefited from Opel's expertise but isn't mechanically related in any way.

summersun54
02-01-2005, 05:08 AM
Here here Calin... I forgot about the plan by GM to develop the joint platform with FIAT. The reason it did not materialise was that this generation Stilo and the last generation Astra were and not matching up in where their life cycles are at. The stilo has a few yeas left to run and GM needed a new astra badly. and as you rightly point out it is debatable if they will get this plan together with all the agro between GM an Fiat

carrera4
02-01-2005, 05:16 AM
Couldn't be that the Delta platform is a modified Astra platform?<br>The wheelbase differences are very small and the suspension types are very similar.<p>However Gm europe can be only Opel, because there is not a GM brand in europe...

Santeno
02-01-2005, 09:39 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>carrera4</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">However Gm europe can be only Opel, because there is not a GM brand in europe...</TD></TR></TABLE><br>There is also Vauxhall, Saab, Chevy & Daewoo's european operations, and whatever cooperative work GM does with Fiat. Sure much of the engineering expertise and design is opel based, but not all of it.

carrera4
02-01-2005, 10:44 AM
You're right, but the only GM brand that could have developed a c-segment platform is actually Opel (since they didn't developed it with Fiat as for the new punto/corsa).

JBlair
02-01-2005, 04:38 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>carrera4</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Couldn't be that the Delta platform is a modified Astra platform?<br>The wheelbase differences are very small and the suspension types are very similar.<p>However Gm europe can be only Opel, because there is not a GM brand in europe...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>It isn't the same; the Delta platform is more advanced in its hardware than the Astra's older platform. Opel helped engineer the platorm because the original plan was for the astra to use it, but that never materialized. Trust me, they're not the same.

CalinG7
02-01-2005, 05:01 PM
Yeah, the plan was to base the new (now current) Astra on the Delta platform. Than the tie-up with Fiat happened and I believe GM and Fiat decided to develop a more Euro-appropriate Astra/Stilo platform together. So, to save costs and other issues, and since the Stilo and its' platform was relatively new, Opel decided to just re-work the previous Astra platform for the time being until they could coordinate the two models' life cycles. Delta, then, remained North America only.

hokman
02-01-2005, 05:53 PM
Thanks a lot, JBlair, for making this thread. Ok, now I understand the Cobalt is not directly based on the Astra. But a lot of people was confused why would GM have 2 different C-segment platforms with torsion beam rear suspension.<br>But our main concern is if the Cobalt is as good as the Astra, now I know the answer is a resounding YES! From motor trend: It seems to be the first fully electric steering in the world to have very good feedback and response. And the car is very smooth and quiet. I went to see the cobalt yesterday and got the catalogue. I also sat in the car and the feeling is very close to astra, the driving position, etc. It's probably in between the old astra's and new one's, which is good news to those who think the new astra's dash is too radical. But the meters remain beautiful. Anyways i'll test drive the coupe when it ships to vancouver next month. We'll see. I hope the cobalt also has the exellent (better than new focus) low speed ride, yet retain the exellent overall handling.<br>Motor trend test:<br>Cobalt supercharge 2.0 ecotec<br>0-60mph 6.0sec<br>600ft slalom 69mph (beats porsche 996)<br>skidpad 0.89g (beats golf R32)<br>braking 60-0 115ft? (beats impreza WRX)<br>This is what's important to us, I think it is as good as the new astra GTC sports hatch.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by hokman at 5:02 PM 2/1/2005</i>

hokman
02-01-2005, 05:58 PM
What the cobalt still doesn't satisfy me is the looks, it's a far cry from astra's. If I really buy it, i'll install astra headlamps and grille. And the old coupe's taillamps, and add chrome bar at the bootlid.

hokman
02-11-2005, 07:31 PM
Since nobody replied me, I went to test drive the cobalt yesterday. Well now I really know this isn't the Astra at all!! You guys are right! The engine is harsh, the gearbox is imprecise and sticky, the clutch is too high. Refinement is bad. The engine lets out a grinding noise when I let off the gas. And the gears are set too low, the rpm rises and the speed not much. Without Astra's CDC, the torsion beam suspension is punishing. The shift Knob is a cheap black ball. When I go back to my 7 years old corolla, I feel like i'm in a Benz!! Before I thought my corolla was crap. I went in with high expectations like you guys but now i'm greatly disappointed. The damn salesman even photocopied my driver's license. Now we now GM isn't selling quality opels in North America. And now we also know why GM in north america need to buy Daewoos to sell, because their cars are probably worst than Korean sh**. And Bob Lutz is trying to fight other C-segment cars with this POS? It's a car that can make a corolla feel like a benz. The corolla has a much better sounding and smoother engine, better clutch, and Much clearer precise and smoother gearbox. I was expecting this to be better than the 7 years old focus, and now I might just buy the old focus. It's a surviving classic.<p>All these flaws made it impossible to drive the car further and test out the handling and steering. The chair was uncomfortable too, and it was impossible to shift. It's like driving a banger. The worst thing is the noise that the engine lets out when you let off the gas. You can't believe it's a new car! It's like driving a 400 dollar car or something. I expected the 2.2 ecotec to be refined and quiet, but it's exactly the opposite.

Naga Royal Guard
02-11-2005, 07:46 PM
sorry about your dissapointment; you might want to try the mazda 3 since alot of people hold it in high regard

SV
02-11-2005, 08:20 PM
oh come on, i doubt it isn't <I>that</I> bad; the cobalt (SS, at least, i havent seen any reviews of the regular cobalt) has gotten good reviews from car & driver, motor trend, edmunds.com, etc. i sat in one at the auto show, and i was surprised that it didn't have a soft-touch dash, but then again there are very few cars in this segment (at least in the U.S.) that have soft-touch dashboards (the only one i can think of that has a soft plastic interior is the VW jetta; i sat in a civic too and couldn't tell whether the dash was hard or soft). the panel fit was very good, and overall it was well put together and the hard plastics were of good quality. of course i can't drive so you could be right about the refinement, but i don't think all the good reviews i've read are complete BS.

hokman
02-13-2005, 03:18 AM
Wow, I'm absolutely stunned at how the fine mannered people at carspyshots.net responded to my test drive. I posted the same test drive results in cobaltss.net ( <A HREF="http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1214&page=1" TARGET="_blank">http://www.cobaltss.net/forums...age=1</A> ), and the people were very ill-mannered and disagreed with me even if they didn't even sat in the car before. It's really interesting to see the savages there, and you should all go see it. Yea, I also read about the fine reviews of the SS, i think it's definately better performance wise.<p>The funniest thing is that the cobalt is absolutely opposite of what I expected it to be, a civilised and refined car like the new Astra and other new Opels. <p>The Omega had great refinement too, I don't know why they replaced it with the ugly and uncanny CTS here in Canada, and I really hope the next Omega will preseve the rear drive layout so the driving pleasure is intact.<br>A great alternative to the more expensive benz and bmw and audi, but better technically if not the image.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by hokman at 2:26 AM 2/13/2005</i>

Nick
02-13-2005, 11:52 PM
You state an interesting review hokman...From what I have recieved from the media and whatnot the Cobalt seemed to be a pretty descent car, even people from C&G, (one of the largest GM forums) who have test driven it says its a great car, and they aren't biased to the point where they will give it a good review regardless...believe me, they criticize gm a lot, and while I have a GM bias, I am not one to really criticize ones opinion (atleast if it is based off experience and not just some pulled out of the ass comment which I know yours isn't)...I also feel somewhat embarassed reviewing the comments made on the cobalt forums being that these are GM fans, and so am I...You bring up very valid points, and they are not the ones that you hear every day...they are from the opposite side of the spectrum which is good to hear once in a while...Frankly, I was also skeptical about the reviews the cobalt was getting, I mean, I know GM is getting better, but the cobalt, while it seems like a descent car (this coming from a person who has neither driven it nor actually seen it in person) I don't think it's fantastic...What you said was just and fair, and like i said, while I may not agree with everything completely you obviously have the experience over me which all I have is information about the car...While I do not visit the cobalt forums so I really dont know if they are like that all the time, I find it strange how they get so defensive and even call you a "troll" and a "retard" for posting an honest, experience based, review/opinion on the car which their one track minds only view as the best car in the category...

hokman
02-15-2005, 01:57 AM
Nick, thanks for your reply. And I appreciate your understanding. Since all the road tests the magazines did are for the cobalt supercharge with sport suspension, the tester must be overwhelmed by the exceptional performance and handling and braking. <p>I mean, from looking at the test data, this front drive car is as good as the focus RS, and can be used to defeat the rally twins. Since the stiff chassis and strong ecotec engine is a good basis to modify from. But I expect the base models to offer comfort and refinement at least to the level of normal cars.<p>True words from my heart: GM does not have the know-how to build good small cars, their expertise is in the muscle car/sports car area. Just looking at the family cars GM produced themselves, they are worlds from the world standard. The corvette is considered brilliant all over the world since C5, up to world standards of this market. However GM has great resources over-seas (Opel), that they should import them here UNALTERED, then GM north america will get a reputation for high refinement and quality of recent opels. North America is starving from quality european family cars (the market is currently owned by focus and golf), it would be very smart to become the third member of euro family cars in NA. Since there are already too many golfs and focus on the street(golf is charging a very high premium over focus for much worst handling and steering and noiser engine, i dunno why), and the newer versions for them both aren't here yet, it's GM's chance to import the Astra. Instead of screwing around with the koreans and the daewoos.<p><br><i>Modified by hokman at 1:07 AM 2/15/2005</i><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by hokman at 1:08 AM 2/15/2005</i>

Naga Royal Guard
02-15-2005, 07:53 AM
somwhere along the lines you seem to not understand that GM canNOT just import cars from Europe; they already have manufacturing facilities in the states ( what would all of those production facilities do) and they would not make any profit from importing the cars from Europe where manufacturing costs are significantly higher

Nick
02-15-2005, 03:29 PM
well, with the coming of some of their new products (the aura especially) we should start to see some better quality coming out of GM...It takes a lot for GM to import cars...take the GTO for example...they absolutely cannot do that with many more cars...all they need to do is start production of vehicles similar to the production they do overseas which in turn would be a lot cheaper than importing the cars...and then you have to worry about converting them to our standards too...We will start seeing that opel quality more and more, but i dont think it wil be coming from overseas...I just find it good to know that cars such as the aura are pretty much 100% production ready...Lutz already stated the aura exterior is 100% ready, and pretty much the entire interior is going to look very much the same...I am sure it will sell great and will be a very good car...

hokman
02-15-2005, 05:02 PM
I see your point, because focus and golf sold in NA aren't manufactured in europe either but in USA and mexico. But GM is already importing Daewoos (they probably see a market here for cheap priced cars with even cheaper quality and mechanics), so can't see why they couldn't import their own company cars Opels instead.<p>However, for some strange and stupid reason, GM is selling the Daewoo Kalos for the price of the much better Echo.