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Cozz
01-23-2005, 03:56 PM
Didn't BMW want to overtake MB as the world luxury leader in sales? And when did BMW want to be the leader, 2006? 2007? Anyone got an old article about it?<p>... me thinks it ain't going to happen.

Naga Royal Guard
01-23-2005, 05:10 PM
i agree that BMW can never do anything again<p>the new S class is going to KILL them, mercedes hybrid powertrains will also leave BMW to advertise variable ratio steering like they invented it; BMW should have never tried to pretend to be a technology leader when they simply arent<p>BMW sealed its own cofin for the next few years with garbage like the Z4, magazines dont care for them anymore and the CLS is the hottest car w/ 4 doors <p>BMW is about fakery, a facimile of what was once great, now one only asks which does bmw do more: Blow or suck?

Nick
01-23-2005, 05:57 PM
atleast the M3 and M5 are still good cars...along with the current 3er and X5 more or less...

zwei Biere bitte
01-23-2005, 07:20 PM
Mercedes has such a huge lineup nowdays, it'll be pretty much impossible for BMW to pass them in terms of sales. I mean with BMW, you have the 1er, 3er, 5er, 6er, 7er, Z4, X3 and X5. Mercedes has the SLK, SL, CLS, CL, ML, G, E, S, C, SLR, Sprinter, Vaneo, Viano... <p>Not to mention the Axor and Acros <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bonk.gif" BORDER="0">

Cozz
01-23-2005, 07:35 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>zwei Biere bitte</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Mercedes has such a huge lineup nowdays, it'll be pretty much impossible for BMW to pass them in terms of sales. I mean with BMW, you have the 1er, 3er, 5er, 6er, 7er, Z4, X3 and X5. Mercedes has the SLK, SL, CLS, CL, ML, G, E, S, C, SLR, Sprinter, Vaneo, Viano... <p>Not to mention the Axor and Acros <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bonk.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>But I think it was just passenger cars as MB itself counts the commercial division different. I think BMW was 200K units off of MB. Very close none of the less but I think it was there best hope for it.

zwei Biere bitte
01-23-2005, 07:58 PM
Ohhh, I see... Thanks for clearing things up :)<p>I hope MB doesn't screw up the S Class with their stupid version of iDrive, and then put it in their whole range. As long as it is rather intuitive, MB doesn't have to worry.

RikfromBelgium
01-25-2005, 11:37 AM
What a load of bull here, especially you naga. <br>The group has already overtaken MB group, bmw brand was only 40.000 cars short worldwide, with fewer models. <br>7 series is leader in the segment in Germany, and close second worldwide. facelift will make it worldleader, be it for a short time. I do realize S-class will be segmentleader again when it arrives in september. But I do think the 7 series will profit from that late arrival to get the wordwide title for 2005. And I do not think the S-class will make such a walkover as some of you think. Concerning that hybrid, don't forget the facelift will be available on hydrogen, the REAL fuell of the future. <br>And we'll see how the S-class I-drive will work, but after BMW and Audi if that isn't perfect they did a ****ty job. <p>6 series, well, it's doing great.<p>5 series has now overtaken the E-class in Europe, I expect the same in the US when estate and more engine's start selling. <p>3 series sales still amazingly strong, even when it's about to be replaced. No MB can match it. When the new 3 series arrives MB is in for the beating of a lifetime. <p>1 series is doing really great, with just the five-door. <p>X5 and X3 are very strong, seems the new ML hasn't affected them, and by the year of 2006, the new X5 will make it's entry.<p>Z4, yes sales are down, but that's a general thing in the segment. But they're not bad. And I expect the new 2.0 will jumpstart sales in Europe. <p>btw, I don't remember BMW stating anything about it beating MB, just that they want to sell 1 500 000 cars by the year of 2008.

SV
01-25-2005, 05:29 PM
i think it's possible for BMW to overtake M-B, but IMO BMW doesn't deserve it. yes, even the bangle-era cars are excellent, but (i think) they are deeply flawed. the 7-series is nice, but the iDrive mk1 is apparently a pain to use, at least at first. and the new 5-series, as sorry as i am to say it, has the absolute worst interior materials quality i have ever seen or felt in a german car. i couldn't find any soft plastics anywhere, it was all odd-feeling hard black plastic. the current models had wonderful quality; the only BMW i've ridden in was a 1999 3er convertible and it was wonderful, and judging from the review's i've read the 5er and 7er still (obviously) drive great, but the new BMWs are, for now, a little more flawed than they used to be (at least until they fix iDrive completely).

zwei Biere bitte
01-25-2005, 07:48 PM
I hate to tell you this Rik, but 5 Series sales were down like 3% in 2004, not very good considering it's only been on the market for 2 years. Also, I doubt the estate will help, just the American attitude towards them <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bonk.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Also, I think BMW offering hydrogen in the facelifted 7 Series is pure marketing. I do think hydrogen is the fuel of the future, but only in 10-20 years. There are almost no hydrogen filling stations anywhere, not to mention, if it breaks down, do you have to send it to Germany to get the special hydrogen components fixed? <p>The facelifted 7 Series should do well IMO though, although if only BMW would banish iDrive from all of their cars...

Cozz
01-25-2005, 08:37 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>RikfromBelgium</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What a load of bull here, especially you naga. <br>The group has already overtaken MB group, bmw brand was only 40.000 cars short worldwide, with fewer models. <br>7 series is leader in the segment in Germany, and close second worldwide. facelift will make it worldleader, be it for a short time. I do realize S-class will be segmentleader again when it arrives in september. But I do think the 7 series will profit from that late arrival to get the wordwide title for 2005. And I do not think the S-class will make such a walkover as some of you think. Concerning that hybrid, don't forget the facelift will be available on hydrogen, the REAL fuell of the future. <br>And we'll see how the S-class I-drive will work, but after BMW and Audi if that isn't perfect they did a ****ty job. <p>6 series, well, it's doing great.<p>5 series has now overtaken the E-class in Europe, I expect the same in the US when estate and more engine's start selling. <p>3 series sales still amazingly strong, even when it's about to be replaced. No MB can match it. When the new 3 series arrives MB is in for the beating of a lifetime. <p>1 series is doing really great, with just the five-door. <p>X5 and X3 are very strong, seems the new ML hasn't affected them, and by the year of 2006, the new X5 will make it's entry.<p>Z4, yes sales are down, but that's a general thing in the segment. But they're not bad. And I expect the new 2.0 will jumpstart sales in Europe. <p>btw, I don't remember BMW stating anything about it beating MB, just that they want to sell 1 500 000 cars by the year of 2008. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Sorry but several things are off. First, BMW never mentioned about "group" just BMW vs. MB. BMW wanted to beat MB at global sales and they missed it by 200K units. Remember that BMW said it before SMART wasn't even a real seller and Maybach wasn't even around.<p>...and the ML only produced 500 units if that, give it six months.<p>

T.B.
01-26-2005, 07:55 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Cozz</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Sorry but several things are off. First, BMW never mentioned about "group" just BMW vs. MB. BMW wanted to beat MB at global sales and they missed it by 200K units. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>BMW was short for about 37k vehicles. Here are the data:<p><br>2004 Global sales<p>BMW Group: 1.208.724 (+9,4%)<br>BMW: 1.023.525 (+10,3%)<br>MINI: 184.357 (+4,5%) (among them 18.741 MINI cabrios)<br>Rolls-Royce: 792 (2003 sales: 300)<p>1-series: 39.247 (from 9/18; N/A in 2003) <br>3-series: 449.732 (-14,9%)<br>5-series: 229.598 (+23,8%; btw, BMW's sales goal was 190.000 units)<br>6-series: 21.040 (N/A in 2003) (12.332 coupes & 8.708 cabrios)<br>7-series: 47.689 (-17,6%)<br>Z4: 38.483 (-18,2%)<br>X3: 92.248 (N/A in 2003)<br>X5: 104.988 (-0,5%)<p>Source: BMW Press<p><br>MB Group Global sales 2004: 1.200.000 (-0,8%)<br>MB: 1.060.000 (-3,1%)<p>Source: <A HREF="http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/74066" TARGET="_blank">http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/74066</A><p><br>P.S.: BMW Group has never claimed BMW brand would surpass MB brand in 2004. It has been stated as BMW Group (BMW, MINI, Rolls-Royce) vs. MB Group (MB, Smart, Maybach) duel ("BMW Group aims to become No.1 premium car manufacturer in 2004"). And BMW Group has won it. <BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Tine at 5:52 PM 1/26/2005</i>

RikfromBelgium
01-26-2005, 08:50 AM
Indeed, I was wondering where the hell that 200k came from <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/cwm13.gif" BORDER="0"> <br>and Cozz, could you show me the article that says BMW wanted to beat MB in 2004

Cozz
01-26-2005, 06:48 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>RikfromBelgium</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Indeed, I was wondering where the hell that 200k came from <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/cwm13.gif" BORDER="0"> <br><b>and Cozz, could you show me the article that says BMW wanted to beat MB in 2004</b> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Are you smoking crack again? I never said BMW wanted to pass MB in 2004 and the reason I posted the thread IS BECAUSE I CAN'T FIND THE OLD ARTICLE! This was the time when BMW bought out Range Rover and all that stuff.<p>

RikfromBelgium
01-27-2005, 10:54 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Cozz</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p> BMW wanted to beat MB at global sales and they missed it by 200K units. <br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>What's this than <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/cwm13.gif" BORDER="0">

Santeno
01-27-2005, 12:13 PM
Guys this argument is just plain silly. So for one year one group outsold the other. Big Wanuts! I serioulsy doubt that that is the permanent state of affairs or that it will remain so for ever (or for long for that matter). Let's check back in a couple of years and see where the figures lie for brands like Lexus and Cadillac, as well as MB (once they finish introducing their new barrage of products). This argument is academic at best.

Naga Royal Guard
01-27-2005, 12:53 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Cozz</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><b>Are you smoking crack again?</b> I never said BMW wanted to pass MB in 2004 and the reason I posted the thread IS BECAUSE I CAN'T FIND THE OLD ARTICLE! This was the time when BMW bought out Range Rover and all that stuff.</TD></TR></TABLE><p><br>i love all you guys all over again now <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/crying.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/all_coholic.gif" BORDER="0">