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CarMattZu777
12-31-2004, 07:57 PM
Great article expaining Isuzu predicament in the US, past info, and what they need to do. "Isuzu Deserves Better", it says.<p><A HREF="http://www.automobear.com/Can%20Isuzu%20seduce%20you.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.automobear.com/Can%....html</A><p>Automobear.com<br>[QUOTE] <br>Can Isuzu seduce you?<br>Why Japan's foremost truck builder, which has failed to keep its foothold in the Land of the SUV, could well deserve your attention<p><br>In Cerritos, California, one company is just barely managing to avert implosion in the U.S. market.<p>Isuzu Motors America, the U.S. distributor for Japans oldest vehicle manufacturer (which dates back to 1916), is going into its twenty-third year in the American market - and into the worst situation it has ever been in.<p>From 1995 to 2000, Isuzu managed to average 100,000 units annually. Indeed, in 1999, it sold 150,300 vehicles.<p>Since 2001, however, sales have been dropping by more than a third with each passing year. Isuzu's total for 2002 tallied just 52,992 units.<p>Even as one-and-a-quarter million Isuzu vehicles are estimated to still be on the road in the U.S., Isuzu trails customer retention statistics at three-and-a-half percent (three times less than Oldsmobile, a runner-up from bottom even as 2004 will be its final year on the market).<p>Nonetheless, Isuzu Motors America's then-executive-VP (now president) J. Terry Mahoney is optimistic, telling Automotive News in April last year that "smaller is better." He promises to make money at merely 36,000 units a year.<p>Forgive us, but alarm bells ring in our ears whenever a company talks of scaling-down. It is all a far cry from Isuzu's heyday, when it supplied Honda with SUVs and stood for capable - if quirky - trucks... effectively Japanese Saabs on stilts.<p>"... Oh, how fast can I go... gotta catch that little red Rodeo," sang country singer Colin Raye in 1997.<p>After nearly seven years, the Isuzu Rodeo has been well and truly caught: this is its last year on the market.<p>A rugged vehicle - deserving enough, thought Honda, of its own badge when it emerged years ago as the Honda Passport - the Rodeo is the victim of a lack of development.<p>The fact that it will not be replaced is a bad move by Isuzu, and bad news for its American distributor - for whom the defunct Amigo and dying Rodeo were its best-known vehicles.<p>Additionally, the Axiom - built alongside the Rodeo at Subaru's Indiana plant - dies, too.<p>Mahoney is seeking to cut lackluster dealers, and wants Isuzu prices cut further. He also expected (in April, 2003, speaking to Automotive News) to sell 22,000 Rodeos annually through 2005, as well as 6,000 Axioms and 6,000 Ascenders -<p>- and was thus seemingly unaware last year that the Rodeo and Axiom would be cut. Who, then, actually made the Subaru plant decision? Not the plant, which recently spoke of layoffs as a result of the drop in production.<p>The demise of the Axiom hits us at AutomoBear hard. It features one of the best engines available in the American truck market. Using the type of niche, 'in-the-know' targeting familiar to manufacturers such as MG-Rover, Isuzu Motors America Inc. offered the first U.S. light truck with a gasoline direct-injection engine (which squirts fuel directly into the cylinders) this past fall.<p>Standard on the 2004 Axiom (a truck whose design we hold in some esteem) and optional on the Rodeo, the 250hp, variable-valve-timed, drive-by-wire 3.5-liter V-6 engine promises 18 mpg in the city and 23 mpg on the highway - and has reduced the Axiom's 0-to-60mph time from 8.9 to 7.5 seconds.<p>"The only other vehicles available for sale in the United States to offer direct-injection gasoline engines," notes Isuzu proudly, "are the $116,495 BMW 760Li and the Rolls-Royce Phantom, priced well above $300,000."<p>"Isuzu stands as not only the sole company to offer a direct injection gasoline engine in a U.S.-market truck, but in a vehicle of any kind available in America under $100,000."<p>Last year, The Auto Channel wrote, "the Axiom can do all the towing and hauling a sportsman, camper or soccer mom would need." Indeed, and add good fit and finish, 3-channel ABS, a switchable dual-range intelligent suspension system, and a Lexus RX300-like multi-function display...<p>... and have we mentioned that the Axiom stands as one of our favorite styles in the SUV world? In a time when Range Rover is being lauded for streamlining its truck-cued styling in creating the Range Stormer Concept, it is worth noting that the Axiom did it first - and with a far more pleasing, sportier look than Porsche's Cayenne.<p>We are frankly at a loss for why Isuzu must struggle.<p>Certainly, the companys dealership network is sparse in its coverage. When, however, have you known us to worry about such mild, mundane inconveniences? Besides, the 7 year/ 75,000 mile warranty on Isuzus remaining three vehicles  Rodeo, Axiom, and Ascender  betters or equals the best in each of those classes.<p>What, then, went so wrong that Isuzu is now forced to expediently re-badge GM's GMT360 platform?<p>More to the point, why can it not sell even these?<p>For one, GM's standard fix for its brands - the GMT360 Trailblazer platform - should finally have found its niche. Unlike Fiat and Saab (which will both probably receive Trailblazer variants), Isuzu badges itself as "the SUV specialist."<p>Its Trailblazer-twin Ascender offers:<p> *<p> more standard equipment than does the Chevrolet;<br> <br> *<p> a lower price;<br> <br> *<p> better acceleration (thanks to a slightly higher rear axle ratio),<br> <br> *<p> and a better warranty.<p>Yet buyers steer clear in droves.<p>Sure, re-badging is hardly brand-building. Mahoney's aversion to the rebates of Isuzu's past are more promising. Gone, however, are the days when Isuzu could sell more of its Rodeos than Honda could move re-badged, identical Passports. The tables are turned; Isuzu is a name which fewer and fewer people want in their driveways. [QUOTE]<p> <p><br><i>Modified by CarMattZu777 at 7:05 PM 12/31/2004</i><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by CarMattZu777 at 5:16 PM 1/3/2005</i>

CarMattZu777
12-31-2004, 07:58 PM
CONTINUED:<p>[quote] <br>Evidently, the brand needs a little help. Yet in a sign that it will not be the first to assist, General Motors went through a recapitalization scheme last year that reduced its interest in Isuzu from 49% to 12%.<p>General Motors, however, has a story to tell behind its investment figures. The Chevrolet Silverado HD and GMC Sierra HD trucks feature an Isuzu-sourced Duramax diesel engine - and with good reason. Isuzu has been pushing diesel for sixty-five years, and supplies its motors not only to GM's trucks, but also to Honda, Opel, and Renault cars in Europe.<p>Given this innovation it has lent to others, it almost seems fitting and proper that Isuzu should now get new life from the Ascender. Even the name implies help from on high (although we cannot understand why Isuzu ditched the brand recognition of Trooper).<p>At the end of the day, though, this is a deal much like Honda donating its engines for use in Saturn's Red Line VUE in return for the use of Onstar. As Car and Driver noted of that particular oddity, "it was hard for traditional gearheads to imagine one of the world's great engine makers giving up a primo powerplant in exchange for something as ephemeral as directions to the best Italian restuarant in Omaha."<p>Isuzu deserves better.<p>Once upon a time, General Motors lacked small trucks. Its Chevrolet LUV started the compact truck craze in the U.S., but was in fact a re-badged Isuzu.<p>Fast-forward a few years later, and General Motors lacked small cars. Isuzu provides the Chevrolet Spectrum, and its Impulse was donated for use as the Geo Storm.<p>Even Honda was not too proud to expediently re-badge Isuzu vehicles. Its Passport - and upscale Acura SLX - were the Isuzu Rodeo and Trooper.<p>Honda, of course, has no further need for Isuzu, having developed - in-house - its Honda Pilot and Acura MDX.<p>Perhaps a better line would be, Isuzu needs to understand that it deserves better.<p>Ascender only tells part of the story; GM co-developed its upcoming line of trucks with Isuzu.<p>The 2004 Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon are twins of Isuzu's D-MAX, the company's fifth-generation of pickups. Why has Isuzu not brought its own, Thai-built variant over to compete alongside the Shreveport, Louisiana-built GM twins?<p>After all, the D-MAX does not use the same engines as the Chevrolet Colorado - and therein may lie Isuzu's salvation: diesel.<p>As noted, Opel and Renault in Europe, and GM in the U.S., can testify to Isuzu's abilities with diesel. Isuzu Motors America needs to look at the growing trend toward diesel in the American market.<p>The Germans will give derv-burning the credibility it needs to return to our shores. Kurt Liedtke, Bosch CEO, suggested to the Automotive News 'World Congress' this year that diesels are expected to become a bigger part of the worldwide automotive market as their performance and emissions improves.<p>Volkswagen AG has cut a biodiesel fuel deal with agribusiness giant Archer Daniels Midland, and was until recently the sole manufacturer attempting to sell diesel cars in the U.S;<p>last year, DaimlerChrysler became the first to provide a diesel SUV Stateside with the new Jeep Liberty;<p>and Mercedes-Benz launched the E420 CDI at NAIAS 2004 in Detroit, hoping to attract Americans to the fuel economy, far improved driveability, and smooth wave of torque provided by a diesel powertrain. Mercedes made the understatement of the show in noting its feeling that diesel vehicles were underestimated in the U.S. 41% of European vehicles are diesel.<p>It would truly be a pity if Isuzu Motors America, whose marketing prides the company on value, were to miss the uniquely value-oriented pitch that a line of direct-injection gasoline, and diesel, vehicles might provide.<p>We had a pleasant chat with the Isuzu people at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit this past January. They were remarkably upbeat, considering they were sitting in the basement, not far from where French engineering division Matra made its last stand in 2003, and alongside tuner vehicles, and Volkswagen's similarly confounding Phaeton.<p>Indeed, if all the manufacturers exhibiting in Detroit had representatives that were quite so enthusiastic, they might not have stood out.<p>As things stand, they did - and so does Isuzu's heritage of innovation. Put simply, we want to see it tapped into.<p>"The goal now is to lower prices and keep a lid on incentives - a strategy Maloney figures will yield the same transaction prices but draw more customers. The strategy will be coupled with a stronger marketing push - all part of the turnaround plan," wrote Katherine Zachary for Ward's Auto World last June.<p>A company which produces one of our favorite SUV styles (the Axiom), and one of the best engines available in the American truck market (Axiom's Direct Injection 3.5-liter unit), is struggling. Then again, perhaps the reason for why can be found in the logic behind the larger Isuzu badge boasted by the outgoing Axiom and Rodeo's rumps for 2004.<p>This is neither what we mean by brand-building, nor does it represent the result of any real soul-searching. Isuzu is a capable company, but needs to do more of both to address its problems in the American market. Go on, Isuzu: prove them wrong [quote]<p><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by CarMattZu777 at 5:16 PM 1/3/2005</i>

Lakeshow23
01-02-2005, 11:39 PM
Nice article. But nobody cares about Isuzu. I was reading one of your large threads in the old forum. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bangin.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Seriously though, I joined this forum literally because I'm one of the few people on earth who owns vehicles made by Isuzu. Hilarious. Besides that, I'm a car enthusiast who has owned cars by Honda and Mitsubishi... and I'm very familiar with Toyotas, and others. I love cars... what can I say. So I need to be here. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bow.gif" BORDER="0">

CarMattZu777
01-03-2005, 02:03 PM
what isuzu do you have???

Alx1rl
01-03-2005, 02:07 PM
Most important thing i read Matt.... <p>Is that QUOTE is the way quote is spelled, now go back and edit your posts. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/1orglaugh.gif" BORDER="0">

Santeno
01-03-2005, 02:19 PM
We'll given enough alcohol, I guess even Isuzu could seduce me... :)

Lakeshow23
01-03-2005, 07:58 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CarMattZu777</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what isuzu do you have???</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I actually own two. I own two Isuzu Impulse RS models. And I also own three GM wannabe Isuzu's... Geo Storms. I dumped my Honda Prelude for the Impulse RS, and I canned buying an Acura Integra, in favor of a Geo Storm GSi. Isuzu's kick ass. I've logged some 400,000 miles in Isuzu vehicles.<p>I actually like Honda's though. So I'm not a hater.

Mr.D
01-03-2005, 08:08 PM
I find Isuzu's current situation pretty depressing. I've owned three Troppers over the years, and '86, '89, and '94. All were excellent vehicles that went well over 100k miles without a single serious problem, they were excellent off-roaders as well. When the all new model arrived in '92 I thought they were on the verge of greatness, and yet they've pretty much bought the big one in the past few years. I don't know about you guys but I don't consider the current Trooper to be an Isuzu, it's a GM product and an ugly one at that IMO... RIP Isuzu <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emsad.gif" BORDER="0">

Lakeshow23
01-03-2005, 09:04 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Mr.D</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When the all new model arrived in '92 I thought they were on the verge of greatness, and yet they've pretty much bought the big one in the past few years. I don't know about you guys but I don't consider the current Trooper to be an Isuzu, it's a GM product and an ugly one at that IMO... RIP Isuzu <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emsad.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>The '92+ Trooper <B>was</B> a great truck, and still is. I dare anybody here to compare their 1992 Explorers, Blazers, 4Runners, etc, up to a '92 Trooper. I can almost guarantee, not scientifically of course, that the Isuzu's are still holding up. Those were absolute high quality vehicles, regardless of whatever the heck Consumer Reports was talking about. No other publication that tried to duplicate those tests were able to flip them. Check the crash and injury ratings of Troopers compared to other SUVs and Troopers weren't flipping any more than the others. No SUV deaths occurred from 1995 models, the model in which Consumer Reports tested and reported the Troopers' flippage (for lack of a better word). Why would Honda rebadge Isuzu's? Why would Opel, Saab, Renault, and Lotus rebadge Isuzu's? Why would GM rebadge Isuzu's? All the Isuzu built vehicles in other brands' names seem to have sold fine, yet for some reason the better Isuzu named vehicles had problems selling? It's called lackluster marketing, poor decision making, GM trying to stifle Isuzu, Consumer Reports, and lack of money for decades that has hurt Isuzu for years. <p>Because Isuzu lacks the capital of other manufacturers, they can't introduce a new model every 3 years like the other guys. They'll build one great car, or truck, and if it sells well they'll keep it around for a decade. No match against something new and refreshing from Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, etc,. <p>Too bad Isuzu didn't bring the Isuzu Bighorn (a Trooper outside of America) to America. They had Lotus suspensions, and turbo diesel engines in them. Kickass! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/bow.gif" BORDER="0"><p>A real car enthusiast in America could pick up a Trooper, and import the Lotus suspensions and the turbo-diesel engine from Europe or Japan. Slap it in the USA Trooper and toss that SUV around like no other US SUV can be tossed around.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Lakeshow23 at 8:10 PM 1/3/2005</i>

CarMattZu777
01-04-2005, 05:40 PM
I think Isuzu's motto should be changed to "Owning is Beleiving". Isuzu can score low on the reliability, satisfaction, and every other report the autowriters can throw at it, but the owners are so enthusiastic and can atest to their quality. And at least in the case of me, who loves Isuzus while not owning one (Except for our GM-made Isuzu Ascender we have), they just make you feel good. Sporty Impulses, rough and tough Troopers and Rodeos, Wild VehiCross and Axioms, they definetly have personality. <p>And these reports of Isuzu's being so faithfully reliable isnt just here at this board. Its everywhere. The other day I was at some forum, and there were countless people who had owned cars like Gemini, I-Mark, and Piazza who say that they have given them years of faithful service, some even not needing repairs barely ever! One guy had owned one of the only few Geminis that were ever imported to the US, and he said it was reallly hard to find parts, so hard that he just gave up. But he said if he could go back in time, he would buy it still, and if he could find one now he would buy it in a heartbeat.

Lakeshow23
01-05-2005, 02:00 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CarMattZu777</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think Isuzu's motto should be changed to "Owning is Beleiving". Isuzu can score low on the reliability, satisfaction, and every other report the autowriters can throw at it, but the owners are so enthusiastic and can atest to their quality. And at least in the case of me, who loves Isuzus while not owning one (Except for our GM-made Isuzu Ascender we have), they just make you feel good. Sporty Impulses, rough and tough Troopers and Rodeos, Wild VehiCross and Axioms, they definetly have personality. <p>And these reports of Isuzu's being so faithfully reliable isnt just here at this board. Its everywhere. The other day I was at some forum, and there were countless people who had owned cars like Gemini, I-Mark, and Piazza who say that they have given them years of faithful service, some even not needing repairs barely ever! One guy had owned one of the only few Geminis that were ever imported to the US, and he said it was reallly hard to find parts, so hard that he just gave up. But he said if he could go back in time, he would buy it still, and if he could find one now he would buy it in a heartbeat. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Here's what I've learned about reliability ratings: They're hogwash. With the 5 Isuzu cars (Geo Storm x3, Isuzu Impulse x2), and the communications I've had with other Storm and Impulse owners... there is only *one* relatively common issue with them. ECMs. Isuzu shouldn't feel ashamed about those, considering *every* model of *every* manufacturer is going to develop a weak spot. And with the Impulse/Storm, a common issue with faulty ECM. Which I should just blame on GM, considering Isuzu did all the mechanical work while GM supplied those cars with the engine management. <p>Anyways, back to reliability ratings and such. When Consumer Reports did a reliability rating on Geo Storms, Consumer Reports initially put it on the recommended "Cars to Buy" list. Then they said, "Not Enough Data to Rate." Later, they said "Used Cars to Avoid" and had the Storm on it. A few years later, again, "Not Enough Data to Rate." They don't know what they're talking about. Proof. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emcocktl.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Anyways, pretty much all Japanese cars are reliable, if you ask me. Except some of those older Mitsubishi's. I wonder about some of those. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/cwm13.gif" BORDER="0">

CarMattZu777
01-06-2005, 07:41 PM
Totally agree. I have absolutely no explanation for why Isuzu has lowest customer loyalty rating, other than that none of them want Ascender lol. I know plenty of ppl who own numerous Isuzus, especially at the numerous owners clubs. One of my uncles will only buy Isuzu Troopers. And more proof lies in why Passports always have much higher resale values than Rodeo. All people care about today is brand recognition, what a pity...

SV
01-06-2005, 09:10 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CarMattZu777</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Totally agree. I have absolutely no explanation for why Isuzu has lowest customer loyalty rating, other than that none of them want Ascender lol. I know plenty of ppl who own numerous Isuzus, especially at the numerous owners clubs. One of my uncles will only buy Isuzu Troopers. And more proof lies in why Passports always have much higher resale values than Rodeo. All people care about today is brand recognition, what a pity...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>well, the rodeo is an extremely dated design, and apart from the engine lags behind the competition in the US. and now that it's going away, the only car left will be the ascender...<br>

CarMattZu777
01-07-2005, 04:51 PM
Rodeo really isnt that putdated, and in fact contains some gret new technology. While the chassis maye date back a decade, it has been highly modified and improved over the years. The optional direct injection engine produces 250 HP, gets 23 mpg, is low emissions, and is the only gasoline DI engine available in a vehicle under $100,000 in the US (along with Axiom). Plus there is torque on demand. As long as you dont mind a harsher ride than a car based vehicle, its a great and capable SUV. It is a truck, and its not going to crossdress for you like these new SUVs.

SV
01-07-2005, 04:52 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CarMattZu777</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Rodeo really isnt that putdated, and in fact contains some gret new technology. While the chassis maye date back a decade, it has been highly modified and improved over the years. The optional direct injection engine produces 250 HP, gets 23 mpg, is low emissions, and is the only gasoline DI engine available in a vehicle under $100,000 in the US (along with Axiom). Plus there is torque on demand. As long as you dont mind a harsher ride than a car based vehicle, its a great and capable SUV. It is a truck, and its not going to crossdress for you like these new SUVs.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>i don't want to get in a flame war, but my personal opinion is that, engine aside, the rodeo is extremely dated. the interior, materials and design-wise, is something out of the early to mid-90s. compared to the 4runner, pathfinder, explorer, durango, grand cherokee, and even the trailblazer, the rodeo is just behind the times (except, like i said, for the engine). i'm not saying they don't have the capability to engineer good cars either, i'm just saying their current american lineup is mediocre.

Lakeshow23
01-07-2005, 05:33 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>SV</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i don't want to get in a flame war, but my personal opinion is that, engine aside, the rodeo is extremely dated. the interior, materials and design-wise, is something out of the early to mid-90s. compared to the 4runner, pathfinder, explorer, durango, grand cherokee, and even the trailblazer, the rodeo is just behind the times (except, like i said, for the engine). i'm not saying they don't have the capability to engineer good cars either, i'm just saying their current american lineup is mediocre.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I actually agree with that statement. Rodeo's are dated, even the newest ones. <br>But, a direct injection engine is definitely something special. But we mustn't act as if Isuzu hasn't refined the underpinnings of the truck. The shell of the thing remains virtually unchanged though for over a decade. That's called... "we ain't got the $$ to spend on a new design every 3 years, like the other guys." Go back to when the Rodeo first was released, like in 1990 or so, and it was definitely top dog in my opinion. But if I were to own an Isuzu, I don't think I'd want a Rodeo or Amigo (ugly). It's all about the Trooper, Impulse, Stylus. Those are the special Isuzu gems. The Rodeo is really a corny truck if you ask me. But I also happen to think there are many other corny SUVs on the market... Explorer, Blazer. But I like none of those either.<p>I have noticed something kind of special (not really bad or good, just weird that I noticed), where Isuzu has managed to cut costs for over a decade. Check out their door handles. From the Geo Storm, Honda Passport, Acura SLX, to the Isuzu Impulse, to the Rodeo, to the Trooper, to the Vehicross, to their medium-duty truck lines... they all pretty much have the same exact door handles. The shape of them is almost identical. <p><i>Modified by Lakeshow23 at 4:47 PM 1/7/2005</i><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Lakeshow23 at 4:48 PM 1/7/2005</i>

CarMattZu777
01-08-2005, 03:44 PM
I guess everyone has their own opinion. I like the Rodeo because it looks like an SUV, not like a wagon or crossdress-over vehicle. But then again, thats my opinion. My only gripe is that the interior is functional, yet very plain. <p>

Lakeshow23
01-08-2005, 04:53 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CarMattZu777</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess everyone has their own opinion. I like the Rodeo because it looks like an SUV, not like a wagon or crossdress-over vehicle. But then again, thats my opinion. My only gripe is that the interior is functional, yet very plain. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Well, nobody is really dogging the Rodeo in terms of its quality. We're all more or less saying that... it's old. And in terms of its interior, it isn't bad. It's just, again, old. All the manufacturers nowadays are experimenting with all sorts of weird thingson SUVs (like chrome trims, carbon fibers, different rubbers, wood grains), and Isuzu was only inventive with Axioms and Vehicrosses. You yourself said the Rodeo's interior is plain. I'd at least hope it's functional. Why couldn't they give the Rodeo the same interior treatments they gave their other, virtually unknown, models? Isuzu's reputation in America is bad enough as it is, why keep the Rodeo interior lame?---and dress up Troopers, Axioms, and Vehicrosses? Again, not a smart move Isuzu. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/nixweiss.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Had the interiors of Rodeos been like the Vehicross---they'd have sold boatloads. Had they been like Axioms---they'd have sold boatloads. People know Rodeo. What they don't is some Vehicross, or Axiom.

fubar
01-11-2005, 11:06 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Santeno</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We'll given enough alcohol, I guess even Isuzu could seduce me... :)</TD></TR></TABLE><p>You can put lipstick on a pig but underneath, it's still a pig.

Santeno
01-11-2005, 11:33 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>fubar</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can put lipstick on a pig but underneath, it's still a pig.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Only now it's a pretty darn charming one.

Naga Royal Guard
01-11-2005, 11:53 AM
put lipstick on a bulbasaur........

CarMattZu777
01-11-2005, 08:45 PM
Hahaha, sure. Cmon, there are several Isuzus that are pretty darn seducing! Piazza, the famous 117 Coupe, Florian, VehiCross, D-MAX, Axiom! All beautiful.<p> <IMG SRC="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/site.neo/117coupe_WEB.jpg" BORDER="0"> <br>Isuzu 117, Giugiaro<p> <IMG SRC="http://www.isuzucarclub.com.au/florian.JPG" BORDER="0"> <br>Isuzu Florian<p><IMG SRC="http://img.shopping.com/cctool/PrdImg/images/pr/177X150/00/01/4a/5a/cb/21650123.JPG" BORDER="0"><br>Isuzu VehiCross<p><IMG SRC="http://www.statesmanclassifieds.com/autos/autoshow/images/reviews/isuzu_axiom01.jpg" BORDER="0"><br>Isuzu Axiom<p><br> <IMG SRC="http://www.pickuptruck.com/IMAGES/2004/isuzu/I190/guide/03d-max.jpg" BORDER="0"><br>Isuzu D-MAX<p>I think its a wrong to say Isuzu hasnt had some daring and seductive designs :)

Santeno
01-12-2005, 09:19 AM
With the exception of the original Impulse and the Axiom, every other design has been of the "me-too" school of design. IOW's, quite generic.

Verdegrrl
01-12-2005, 12:47 PM
I owned an Isuzu Impulse for a number of years. The rwd Lotus handling package version. Fit and finish were easily up to Toyota standards at the time, and actually held up better over the years. The handling was simply awesome - in the dry. Wet or snow made the car extremely tail happy. It wore out shocks rather quickly (I used 3 sets over 130,000 miles, but they came with a lifetime replacement policy), but they were easy to replace. The car had two serious issues which are why you don't see them on the road any more:<p>Transmissions. I went though 3 in all. Apparently a design flaw. The 2nd time I replaced it, I took the tranny to a highly regarded specialist for a rebuild. Oil starvation to parts of the trans on long uphill climbs meant that the bearings in the forward section of the trans would die. Every time I would hear an Impulse go by, I would hear the same whine from the tranny - unless it was an automatic - those lasted longer.<p>The 2.3 engine was a heavy lump from the 4 cyl Trooper. Made the car very nose heavy. It also hated to rev. 4500rpms was about all you could stand before you'd swear the engine was going to blow up, despite having a 6500 rpm redline. The nice thing is that it had 130ft lbs of torque at low rpms, so there really wasn't any reason to rev much.<p>Other than the transmission woes, I really liiked the car. It was remarkably good, and I regret seeing Isuzu in such dire straits. I don't have a use for any of the vehicles they offer here now, or I would consider them along with all the other big names.<p> <A HREF="http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/" TARGET="_blank">http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/</A>

Lakeshow23
01-12-2005, 07:50 PM
Well, I'm not going to defend the reliability of the JR Impulses ('81-89), but I will say this much: Out of all the people I know with JR Impulses (and that's many), you, Verdegrrl, are the first person I've met with tranny problems. <p>It's not like Honda, Toyota, GM, and especially Ford haven't had major problems in terms of reliability. Toyota had major issues that went under the table, with many Celicas, Camrys, Siennas, and others seizing engines. Honda had recalls with defective Accord transmissions. Nobody talks about those two having problems, because of all the years of solid reliability. It's almost like nobody cares. Ford... 'nuff said there. Isuzu is 20x's more reliable than Ford. GM? 'Nuff said. Their highest rated cars by J.D. Power & Associates are those designed by Isuzu.

CarMattZu777
01-13-2005, 05:08 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Lakeshow23</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Their highest rated cars by J.D. Power & Associates are those designed by Isuzu. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>AMEN!<br>Including the CVs, which for some reason GM took top position over Isuzu, wtf?

Verdegrrl
01-13-2005, 10:20 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Lakeshow23</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, I'm not going to defend the reliability of the JR Impulses ('81-89), but I will say this much: Out of all the people I know with JR Impulses (and that's many), you, Verdegrrl, are the first person I've met with tranny problems. ....It's almost like nobody cares. Ford... 'nuff said there. Isuzu is 20x's more reliable than Ford. GM? 'Nuff said. Their highest rated cars by J.D. Power & Associates are those designed by Isuzu. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Don't get me wrong, I liked my Isuzu very much. It's just after spending some cold nights on a concrete floor, removing and replacing the tranny in "Izzy" twice, that I didn't want to repeat the experience <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/nixweiss.gif" BORDER="0"> Every manual Impulse I heard in later years, had the same whine from the gearbox as I heard in mine. Overall it was more reliable than some friend's similar vintage Celicas who went through several heads and numerous electrical parts. Handling was certainly far better <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> There is no totally reliable brand or model of car. Everything is a trade-off. I could never trade the extra perceived reliablity of a similar Honda or Toyota for the character of the Impulse.<p>I would gladly buy another Isuzu product if they made a small sleek coupe or sedan with fantastic handling. I've introduced several people to the later Troopers (having sold them in briefly in my car sales career). Like Saab or Lancia, they have merits that are not readily quantifiable. That makes them hard to sell.

rman5001
01-13-2005, 10:28 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Lakeshow23</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>Isuzu is 20x's more reliable than Ford. GM? 'Nuff said. Their highest rated cars by J.D. Power & Associates are those designed by Isuzu. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>The highest rated cars by CUSTOMERS as measured by JDP in the 2004 IQS are:<p>Escalade (tied for 3rd in class)<br>Malibu (3nd in class)<br>Alero (2nd in class)<br>Century (1st in class)<br>Monte Carlo (2nd in class)<br>Sierra/Silverado (2nd and 3rd in class)<br>LeSabre (2nd in class)<br>CTS (3rd in class)<br>Suburban (1st in class)<br>Tahoe (2nd in class)<br>DeVille (2nd in class)<br>XLR (3rd in class)<br>

CarMattZu777
01-14-2005, 04:41 PM
Well rman5001, the Sierra and Silverado use Isuzu DuraMax engines. And you forgot to mention Commercial trucks which are built by Isuzu for GM. Then the european cars that they use engines for (Astra, other Opels). Those do pretty well in Europe. Also, GM uses the Isuzu D-MAX truck in its Chevy Colorado, GMC Canyon, and Holden Rodeo, and also used the Isuzu platform for the Hummer H3. GM also sells the Isuzu Crosswind as the Chevy Tavera in Asia Although this is much less products than GM used to "borrow" from Isuzu, its still quite considerble. GM used to rebadge every Isuzu vehicle (even Trooper and Rodeo) in its worldwide markets, and still sells the 1st gen Rodeo in South America along with the newer Isuzu models. Whether you like it or not, GM owes Isuzu alot.

rman5001
01-14-2005, 05:21 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CarMattZu777</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well rman5001, the Sierra and Silverado use Isuzu DuraMax engines. And you forgot to mention Commercial trucks which are built by Isuzu for GM. Then the european cars that they use engines for (Astra, other Opels). Those do pretty well in Europe. Also, GM uses the Isuzu D-MAX truck in its Chevy Colorado, GMC Canyon, and Holden Rodeo, and also used the Isuzu platform for the Hummer H3. GM also sells the Isuzu Crosswind as the Chevy Tavera in Asia Although this is much less products than GM used to "borrow" from Isuzu, its still quite considerble. GM used to rebadge every Isuzu vehicle (even Trooper and Rodeo) in its worldwide markets, and still sells the 1st gen Rodeo in South America along with the newer Isuzu models. Whether you like it or not, GM owes Isuzu alot. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>1. The post I was responding to stated GM's highest performing vehicles in the JDP rankings are were designed by Isuzu. Clearly that is not the case. Of the vehicles listed, yes the GMT800 family uses Isuzu engines, but I would guess the penetration of those engines would be limited and knowing the JDP survey in detail, I doubt they would have made the difference.<p>2. Like it or not Isuzu owes GM a lot. That how a business investment works. GM ponied up a big chunk of change. What did you think they would expect in return? a hug and a hearty handshake? Not only did GM provide cash, but when a large investor shows confidence in the company it makes it easier to get a lot of smaller investors and banks to invest money. In most objective analysts opinion GM's $500M investment in 2001 was necessary to keep "Isuzu viable."<p><A HREF="http://www.forbes.com/2002/12/30/cx_mf_1230test.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.forbes.com/2002/12/....html</A><p>Even now, Isuzu is trying to get GM to increase its stake<p><A HREF="http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news/2004/12/16/304730.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.theautochannel.com/....html</A><p>3. The relationship also works the other way.... your beloved D-Max would have been much more difficult to bring to market with GM's $$ and/or the increased volume that it provides.<p>4. I have nothing against Isuzu. It has some decent technology and right now is an interesting niche player. However its long term prospect as an independent vehicle manufacturer as marginal at best. <p>The auto industry (from a manufacturer's perspective) is a crappy industry. Its overcapacity with plenty of competitors that are willing to take a loss just to cover their costs. Add to that the inevitable Chinese and Indian companies which, although have laughable products today, will use their home markets and government aid to get progressively better and put even more pressure on incumbants. The Korean manufacturers are also better with every model.<p>Finally, Isuzu is a dedicated TRUCK manufacturer in the best truck market of all time. Yes their profit has increased (not hard to do when you were at all time lows) but it really should be a lot better given their strategy.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by rman5001 at 4:44 PM 1/14/2005</i>

Naga Royal Guard
01-14-2005, 11:47 PM
i dont think seduction sells 500,000+ Camrys and Accords a year - more to isuzu's field, Seduction doesent sell almost a MILLION F-150s a year either<p>

Lakeshow23
01-15-2005, 08:38 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>rman5001</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1. The post I was responding to stated GM's highest performing vehicles in the JDP rankings are were designed by Isuzu. Clearly that is not the case. &lt;snip&gt;</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Well, I was basically quoting the show that I watched. It was some automotive show that was televised on PBS. I really don't remember its name as I never saw the show before. Basically, it said that the most reliable and highest rated cars, by far, the top 19 rated, were Japanese. Honda, Toyota, Nissan. Whatever your list explains, I really can't nitpick. I literally was quoting the show. After pointing out that the highest rated vehicles were Japanese cars, they gave special attention to pointing out that the only area in which American manufacturers did well was with their trucks. And it wasn't Ford trucks taking those honors, they were GM trucks. And I know that Isuzu has had at least a helping hand in designing GM trucks, and because Isuzu is Japanese---I brought it up. I really don't know what your list is, and I don't know what methods the TV show used to come up with the "top 19 vehicles were Japanese." So my statement is just going to have to stand as is.

rman5001
01-16-2005, 11:00 AM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Lakeshow23</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Well, I was basically quoting the show that I watched. It was some automotive show that was televised on PBS. I really don't remember its name as I never saw the show before. Basically, it said that the most reliable and highest rated cars, by far, the top 19 rated, were Japanese. Honda, Toyota, Nissan. Whatever your list explains, I really can't nitpick. I literally was quoting the show. After pointing out that the highest rated vehicles were Japanese cars, they gave special attention to pointing out that the only area in which American manufacturers did well was with their trucks. And it wasn't Ford trucks taking those honors, they were GM trucks. And I know that Isuzu has had at least a helping hand in designing GM trucks, and because Isuzu is Japanese---I brought it up. I really don't know what your list is, and I don't know what methods the TV show used to come up with the "top 19 vehicles were Japanese." So my statement is just going to have to stand as is. </TD></TR></TABLE><p><br>Your logic confuses me.... Toyota/Honda have excellent reliability (and are Japanese).... GM has success with trucks.... Isuzu is part of the GM family that makes trucks.... Isuzu is Japanense...... ergo GM has success because of Isuzu. And all of this from a show you've never seen before whose name you can't remember.<p>I don't know where to start poking holes in that....<p>My list was from the JD Power website, (J.D. Power being the source you cited) the GM vehicles recognized in the Initial Quality Survey. No Isuzu based product.<p>If you look at the JD Power dependability report.... the 3 GM vehicles on the list are the Tahoe, Malibu and Sierra. Don't try to convince me that the success of these vehicles is based on Isuzu. Yes, Sierra uses DuraMax diesels, but on a small % of their vehicles, and these reports are based on the entire vehicle, not just the engine or even powertrain. <p>Besides isn't (at least some) of the DuraMax product a Joint Venture between GM and Isuzu??? GM has been making truck engines for some time. I'm sure they bring something to the table.<br>

CarMattZu777
01-16-2005, 03:12 PM
The DuraMax FACILITY is owned partially by GM, but is run by Isuzu and all engines are Isuzu. Isuzu is also developing a new V8 for GM, as well as hybrid technology, so even more GM trucks will use Isuzu engines, and subsequently GM reliability will rise. <p>What gets me is that why does Isuzu even bother to sell its commercial trucks to GM. Why not sell them on their own, they are good at that with their CVs. Other than some cash in the past that GM gave Isuzu for stock share (then sold it when the price rose), why does Isuzu degrade themselves any further with GM? What does Isuzu get out of the deal these days? Ascender, and for only 1 more year most likely? GM isnt even the largest stockholder any more, they have been displaced by Mitsubishi Bank. Thank God!<p>And also, GM broke its promise with the D-MAX pickup "codevelopment". When the D-MAX was introduced in late 2001, GM announced that it was codeveloping the truck. LIES. Why do you think GM didnt get its copy here till 2004? Because they saw the finished product, liked it obviously, then used fancy words to make it seem like ti was their own. Nothing they havent doen repeatedly in the past.<p>But what enrages me is that GM broke the whole promise. Isuzu wanted to sell it in America and build it alongside the Colorado/Canyon for US market (Isuzu even had test D-MAXs roaming around California, as seen in some spy shots taken in 2003). GM said they could not, but if Isuzu let them sell it, they would stay in the US and Isuzu could have the world market. Even trade off. Well, one day GM decided to sell Colorado in Thailand, like a backstabing bastard, because Thailand is Isuzu's top selling market. Luckily, Isuzu-loyal Thailand caught on, and did not buy the Colorado very much. D-MAX still reigns, but its the whole loyalty aspect of, which GM has given none.<p>The only major differences between the Colorado and D-MAX are that the Isuzu has very efficient yet powerful diesel engines (32.5 mpg!!!), and the Colorado has thirsty, gas engines. Also, the D-MAX received a flex-plus suspension, while the Colorado suspension was downgraded from even the base model D-MAX suspension, and it is documented by autowriters in both Thailand and Britian that the D-MAX gives a far superior ride. <br>Colorado also has different AC vents, but even the steering wheel is identical.<p>I can understand why you think GM brings something to the table for Isuzu. It would seem that way, after all Isuzu gives to GM. But in reality, GM is the relative who arives unannounced and eats all your food, and doesnt ever invite you over. But thanks to Mitsubishi Bank having the upper hand in Isuzu now, expect things to change pretty soon. Mitsubishi/Isuzu is already taking over some of GMs Isuzu networks, such as Spain, Belgium, and Malaysia.<p>Oh and some cars I forgot to list earlier that GM got from Isuzu:<br>Vauxhall Montery, Frontera and Frontera Sport, Brava<br>Opel Montery, Gemini, Kadette, Frontera and Frontera Sport, Campo<br>Chevy Trooper, Rodeo, Caribe, Aska, Gemini, LUV, <br>Pontiac Sunburst<br>Buick Kadette<br>Buick Opel<br>Holden Jackaroo, Frontera and Frontera Sport, Gemini, Piazza, 117, PA-Nero,<br>Geo Storm <br>Subaru Bighorn<p>Other cars interestingly made by Isuzu:<br>Asuna Sunfire<br>Honda Jazz (original), Passport, Horizon, Acura SLX<p><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by CarMattZu777 at 2:29 PM 1/16/2005</i>

Naga Royal Guard
01-16-2005, 03:31 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CarMattZu777</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Oh and some cars I forgot to list earlier that GM got from Isuzu:<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>so, do you have tapes form the security cameras of Lutz and Wagoneer breaking into Izuzu's house and stealing these cars and engines?

rman5001
01-16-2005, 05:56 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>CarMattZu777</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The DuraMax FACILITY is owned partially by GM, but is run by Isuzu and all engines are Isuzu. Isuzu is also developing a new V8 for GM, as well as hybrid technology, so even more GM trucks will use Isuzu engines, and subsequently GM reliability will rise. <p>What gets me is that why does Isuzu even bother to sell its commercial trucks to GM. Why not sell them on their own, they are good at that with their CVs. Other than some cash in the past that GM gave Isuzu for stock share (then sold it when the price rose), why does Isuzu degrade themselves any further with GM? What does Isuzu get out of the deal these days? Ascender, and for only 1 more year most likely? GM isnt even the largest stockholder any more, they have been displaced by Mitsubishi Bank. Thank God!<p>And also, GM broke its promise with the D-MAX pickup "codevelopment". When the D-MAX was introduced in late 2001, GM announced that it was codeveloping the truck. LIES. Why do you think GM didnt get its copy here till 2004? Because they saw the finished product, liked it obviously, then used fancy words to make it seem like ti was their own. Nothing they havent doen repeatedly in the past.<p><br>I can understand why you think GM brings something to the table for Isuzu. It would seem that way, after all Isuzu gives to GM. But in reality, GM is the relative who arives unannounced and eats all your food, and doesnt ever invite you over. But thanks to Mitsubishi Bank having the upper hand in Isuzu now, expect things to change pretty soon. Mitsubishi/Isuzu is already taking over some of GMs Isuzu networks, such as Spain, Belgium, and Malaysia.<p><i>Modified by CarMattZu777 at 2:29 PM 1/16/2005</i></TD></TR></TABLE><p>First, wasn't Mistu's investment for only 0.3%. There investment last I saw was for perferred shares. Maybe there was a follow-on that I didn't hear about. I don't know how it works in Japan but in the US you take preferred shares because<p>a) you get a guaranteed income stream through bond-like payments. this way you can protect your investment if you don't have confidence in the company and don't want to risk taking common equity.<p>b) you also get to be higher on the creditor list if the company goes bankrupt and you are trying to claim assets.<p>This is why most venture capitalists use some form of preferred share option when making risky investments.<p>Second, I would ask again, why, (if Isuzu is being degraded as you say) are they asking for more GM involvement. If (as you say, and I highly disagree) GM is such a horrible, evil, manipulative company, and Isuzu is coming back for more, then its their fault. If they are such a great investment why are they looking for another suitor?<p>I really don't understand the victim complex here.

Lakeshow23
01-16-2005, 07:10 PM
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>rman5001</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your logic confuses me.... Toyota/Honda have excellent reliability (and are Japanese).... GM has success with trucks.... Isuzu is part of the GM family that makes trucks.... Isuzu is Japanense...... ergo GM has success because of Isuzu. And all of this from a show you've never seen before whose name you can't remember.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Read carefully. I watched the show. I don't remember its exact name. It was an auto show that was on PBS sometime last week. You can nitpick strictly for the sake of making an argument all you want... it doesn't change the shows argument at all. The top rated 19 cars were all Japanese, and the top rated trucks were a mixure of Japanese and American... with the top American trucks being those sold under the GM brand. The show mentioned nothing about GMs trucks being Isuzu designed---I did. I mentioned that GMs trucks, at the very least, had design input from Isuzu.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My list was from the JD Power website, (J.D. Power being the source you cited) the GM vehicles recognized in the Initial Quality Survey. No Isuzu based product.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I didn't make that argument.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you look at the JD Power dependability report.... the 3 GM vehicles on the list are the Tahoe, Malibu and Sierra. Don't try to convince me that the success of these vehicles is based on Isuzu. Yes, Sierra uses DuraMax diesels, but on a small % of their vehicles, and these reports are based on the entire vehicle, not just the engine or even powertrain. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>First off, when I was referring to Isuzu and GM I never intended to mean cars. I was strictly referring to trucks. If the Tahoe had nothing to do with Isuzu, and happens to be higher rated than the Sierra, then you don't have a problem with me. I quoted a automotive television show.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Besides isn't (at least some) of the DuraMax product a Joint Venture between GM and Isuzu??? GM has been making truck engines for some time. I'm sure they bring something to the table.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>C'mon dude. GM lessens the quality of Isuzu products. You should know that. You're talking to somebody who has an Isuzu built rebadged Geo Storm and an Isuzu Impulse (it's twin car that was better, yet had lower ratings from magazines, and sold infinitely less. Over 300,000 Storms were sold in the US, compared to less than 5,000 Impulses.). Gee, I wonder why Isuzu left the U.S. car market.