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chef211
09-03-2011, 06:19 PM
http://www.auto.cz/brilliance-530-58144
http://www.autohome.com.cn/news/201103/181140.html

Showcar pictures at links posted below:

http://car.autohome.com.cn/showcar/exps23/2323.html
http://auto.sina.com.cn/shanghaichezhan/2011hall/sub_brands2609/

pjl35
09-03-2011, 06:23 PM
Audi interior + GM steering wheel. That interior would probably blind someone on a sunny day...yikes.

http://www.autoimg.cn/shows/2011/4/19/oa/2011041923065780743.jpg

CosworthKid
09-03-2011, 06:26 PM
Not sure where the rear is borrowed from (IF it is) but i like it...the rest is as usual

chef211
09-03-2011, 06:43 PM
Not sure where the rear is borrowed from (IF it is) but i like it...the rest is as usual

Audi A4 inspired

CosworthKid
09-03-2011, 06:47 PM
Audi A4 inspired

Probably but tbh i see more Audi on some current KIA/Hyundai vehicles (the Venga comes to one)

Rob
09-03-2011, 06:48 PM
The exterior looks like a mix of a lot of things, but overall a pretty nice looking car.

DATSUN
09-03-2011, 08:23 PM
Though derivative, its a pretty sharp car. Some added refinement in the interior would be nice though.

rv65
09-04-2011, 12:18 AM
I wonder how well this thing does in a crash test.

chef211
09-04-2011, 12:57 AM
I wonder how well this thing does in a crash test.

Well judging by other chinese cars, not so well.

2o6
09-04-2011, 04:28 AM
Well judging by other chinese cars, not so well.

That isn't true, especially since modern Chinese cars do well in crash tests. (Chery/Riich lineup in particular)


You can't make generalizations like that.

chef211
09-04-2011, 04:32 AM
That isn't true, especially since modern Chinese cars do well in crash tests. (Chery/Riich lineup in particular)


You can't make generalizations like that.

Have you ever seen the Chery Amulet crash footage.

2o6
09-04-2011, 04:41 AM
Have you ever seen the Chery Amulet crash footage.


Which in turn is an old SEAT Toledo, so shame on VW for making an unsafe car. Heck, the old GM U-body vans (Venture) crash just as bad.

We don't know anything until they run it into a wall, and lately the more established makes have gotten better at it. Even so, Brilliance and Chery aren't even related.

chef211
09-04-2011, 04:46 AM
Which in turn is an old SEAT Toledo, so shame on VW for making an unsafe car. Heck, the old GM U-body vans (Venture) crash just as bad.

We don't know anything until they run it into a wall, and lately the more established makes have gotten better at it. Even so, Brilliance and Chery aren't even related.

BS4 European crash test scored 2 stars in the crash test.

2o6
09-04-2011, 04:53 AM
BS4 European crash test scored 2 stars in the crash test.

And this is not a BS4. Besides, the FRV got four stars in CNCAP.

chef211
09-04-2011, 04:57 AM
And this is not a BS4. Besides, the FRV got four stars in CNCAP.

CNCAP has different crash standards than the US and Europe.

2o6
09-04-2011, 05:00 AM
CNCAP has different crash standards than the US and Europe.

Not by much, otherwise all western cars would ace the test. (they don't)


Besides IIHS, NHSTA and Euro-Ncap aren't even all that comparable. ( BS4 still only got three stars in CNCAP)

chef211
09-04-2011, 05:07 AM
Not by much, otherwise all western cars would ace the test. (they don't)


Well all of China's cars all built by joint ventures from Chinese manufacturers, so of course many of them don't.

2o6
09-04-2011, 05:37 AM
Well all of China's cars all built by joint ventures from Chinese manufacturers, so of course many of them don't.

So you think that all Chinese products have bad quality? Then don't use any iPod and stop using your computer. And only a handful of cars are joint ventures; the rest are imports.

Blackraven
09-04-2011, 10:28 AM
Mainland Chinese are good at creating something that is given to them. You give them a blueprint and they will follow it to the letter.

However, with regards to creating something that is of their own, they still have a long way to go. Only a few are doing well atm (probably brands like Haier, Midea and perhaps Lenovo.........if that is still counted).

With regards to cars, I'd say they have a long way to go before the local brands can even produce something as world-class.

Maybe in 20 years. We'll see.

swizzle
09-04-2011, 03:32 PM
...With regards to cars, I'd say they have a long way to go before the local brands can even produce something as world-class.

Maybe in 20 years. We'll see.

I'll bet on 5.

Blackraven
09-04-2011, 03:55 PM
I'll bet on 5.

We'll see.

With that said
I do wonder how long it took the Koreans. I think it was 10-15 years.

Either way, like the Koreans, the Mainland Chinese auto brands will need a knock-out product that is world-class.

P.S.
For me, it was the Hyundai Veracruz that was the first car from the Koreans that I considered as world-class.

mick78
09-04-2011, 09:05 PM
Well, considering that both Japanese and Korean car makers were producing cars for several years before starting to export, and even after that it took them a few years to be considered as a real alternative and not only a budget choice, I don't see the Chinese coming that fast. Most own brands have just staretd in tehse years, and whilst specialy the JApanese cars were from the begining offering very good quality and some good engineering, the Chinese cars all seem to have a lousy quality, and are bult on a budget. Also, the Japanese (and Hyundai as well) had the most modern factories and stuff like just in time production was also copied by euro and US makers. so their price advatage came from more clever production methods also enabeling better quality), whilst many chiense companies still rely heavily on cheap manual labour. (Japan especially, but also Korea never had cheap labour to begin with) Which neither can offer the same quality, ad as soon economic growth pushes salaries, that advantag eis gone.

So, personally I don't yet see the big threat, as staring point is differnet to Japan or Korea. As soon as they have modern companies (in engineering and production terms), which make decent products for their home market for some time, exports will be succesfull, and then we can start counting years. Until then, I see a lot of efforts of bringing finally chinese cars, but not any success so far in western markets. Im EUrope at least, all companies have disapeared again....

swizzle
09-05-2011, 01:25 AM
It all depends what your bogey is for "world class."

The Veracruz was hardly the turning point for Hyundai given the the Veracruz is an utter failure in the market.

The true turning point was the 1998 (?) Sonata where the car magazines and Consumer Reports openly said the Sonata was viable competition to the CamCord.

Since then there has been no turning back as they continued to improve their game. Granted, there was a gap between that Sonata and the equivalent Camry, BUT the Chinese are NOT 15 years off from fielding a vehicle that does for them what the turning-point Sonata did for Hyundai.

I loved the foolishness of saying if you give the Chinese something to build they can build it well, but by implication are apparently too stupid to do it themselves.

Come on! Really?

Underestimating China is not wise.

Oz Astra
09-05-2011, 02:16 AM
Not sure where the rear is borrowed from (IF it is) but i like it...the rest is as usual

Looks to me like a cross between Buick Verano and Kia Cerato

MichaelWNZ
09-06-2011, 11:42 AM
Well judging by other chinese cars, not so well.

I would like to inform you that the Great Wall X240 SUV scored four stars in the ANCAP crash tests- the same rating as the Toyota Camry Hybrid. Something which Toyota wasn't too pleased about.

And for your information, ANCAP is is based on the same crash tests and regulations as EuroNCAP.

2o6
09-06-2011, 12:39 PM
It all depends what your bogey is for "world class."

The Veracruz was hardly the turning point for Hyundai given the the Veracruz is an utter failure in the market.

The true turning point was the 1998 (?) Sonata where the car magazines and Consumer Reports openly said the Sonata was viable competition to the CamCord.

Since then there has been no turning back as they continued to improve their game. Granted, there was a gap between that Sonata and the equivalent Camry, BUT the Chinese are NOT 15 years off from fielding a vehicle that does for them what the turning-point Sonata did for Hyundai.

I loved the foolishness of saying if you give the Chinese something to build they can build it well, but by implication are apparently too stupid to do it themselves.

Come on! Really?

Underestimating China is not wise.


That Sonata is still a little crappy by comparison.

The real turning point was the 2001 Elantra.

Superamerica
09-06-2011, 06:30 PM
Either way, like the Koreans, the Mainland Chinese auto brands will need a knock-out product that is world-class.

But based on the Koreans' success in America, I wouldn't be surprised if the next iteration of this Brilliance model becomes America's best-selling car. All the Chinese need to do is enter the US market and price it like they price their all-you-can-eat buffets (i.e., way below the competition). A major economic collapse predicted to happen in 2012 would help boost Brilliance's sales.

swizzle
09-07-2011, 01:56 AM
That Sonata is still a little crappy by comparison.

The real turning point was the 2001 Elantra.

Lordy! Living in the land of delusion....

DoMiNo
09-07-2011, 01:59 AM
Lordy! Living in the land of delusion....

He said that Sonata, not the Sonata.

2o6
09-07-2011, 03:11 AM
Lordy! Living in the land of delusion....

The one after it was very good, and the new one is excellent.


But the 1998 model was lacking in comparison to the competition.

2o6
04-25-2012, 08:19 PM
H530 REEV (An electric variant of some sort)


I think it looks really good on these wheels.

http://img2.bitautoimg.com/autoalbum/files/20120423/590/21201259060222_1878297_9.jpg

http://img4.bitautoimg.com/autoalbum/files/20120423/302/21201230269793_1878267_9.jpg
http://img4.bitautoimg.com/autoalbum/files/20120423/839/21201283962668_1878363_9.jpg

http://photo.bitauto.com/exhibit/carmore/46297/1.html

swizzle
04-26-2012, 12:58 PM
A very credible car.

MBsam
04-26-2012, 09:53 PM
Buick Verano

2o6
04-27-2012, 12:01 AM
Buick Verano



Brilliance was first.

JBlair
04-27-2012, 02:32 AM
Brilliance was first.
That's like saying a photocopy came before the original. The Brilliance was neither an original design nor 'first' at anything.

2o6
04-27-2012, 03:59 AM
That's like saying a photocopy came before the original. The Brilliance was neither an original design nor 'first' at anything.

To be fair, neither car is particularly unique. Besides, the Brilliance and Verano have totally different proportions.

MBsam
04-27-2012, 03:49 PM
With the exception of the Verano's a-pillar window these two cars have nearly identical proportions. I don't know how you could argue another way...

2o6
04-27-2012, 08:08 PM
No, the Verano is very cab forward with a high belt line and short trunk. The H530 is more traditional in its approach. Almost like an old A4.



Besides, Brilliance's design beats the Veranos by almost a full year...

MBsam
04-27-2012, 10:09 PM
Seriously dude? It's basically the same design with a slightly shorter greenhouse. The similarity is almost absurd.

I also find nothing to support your claim that this design was out a year before the Verano.

2o6
04-27-2012, 10:45 PM
Seriously dude? It's basically the same design with a slightly shorter greenhouse. The similarity is almost absurd.

I also find nothing to support your claim that this design was out a year before the Verano.

http://file.kelleybluebookimages.com/kbb//vehicleimage/evoxseo/cj/l/8036/2012-buick-verano-side_8036_001_640x480_gba.jpg
http://img2.bitautoimg.com/autoalbum/files/20120423/590/21201259060222_1878297_9.jpg


They're quite different in proportions. The Brilliance is lower with less front overhang. It's also a little wider (looking) and less sculpted (whereas the Verano looks taller). If anything, both designs are incredibly generic, and use general styling cues seen on pretty much every manufacturer out there. The whole feel of the Brilliance puts me more of the current Audi A4 in proportions, rather than the Buick Verano.


Spy shots of the H530 (known as the Brilliance A4 for quite some time) were broken in late 2010, then the entire model was released in summer of 2011. It's been on sale for a little while, now. The Verano has just gone on sale a few weeks ago.


Do you really think (either Buick or Brilliance) that they literally copied one another, then were able to turn out a finished product in a matter of a few weeks? It's not possible. The H530 has Brilliance's new styling language, which honestly doesn't really look like Buick's at all.

MBsam
04-28-2012, 02:12 AM
http://file.kelleybluebookimages.com/kbb//vehicleimage/evoxseo/cj/l/8036/2012-buick-verano-side_8036_001_640x480_gba.jpg
http://img2.bitautoimg.com/autoalbum/files/20120423/590/21201259060222_1878297_9.jpg


They're quite different in proportions. The Brilliance is lower with less front overhang. It's also a little wider (looking) and less sculpted (whereas the Verano looks taller). If anything, both designs are incredibly generic, and use general styling cues seen on pretty much every manufacturer out there. The whole feel of the Brilliance puts me more of the current Audi A4 in proportions, rather than the Buick Verano.


Spy shots of the H530 (known as the Brilliance A4 for quite some time) were broken in late 2010, then the entire model was released in summer of 2011. It's been on sale for a little while, now. The Verano has just gone on sale a few weeks ago.


Do you really think (either Buick or Brilliance) that they literally copied one another, then were able to turn out a finished product in a matter of a few weeks? It's not possible. The H530 has Brilliance's new styling language, which honestly doesn't really look like Buick's at all.

Sorry that's incorrect. The Verano's styling has been known for OVER a year (January 2011) and as been on sale for about 5 months. The Brilliance in its final form was shown nearly 6 months after the Verano. I had one as a tester 2 months ago and I was not the first journalist to have it by a long-shot.

If there is one thing we know about Chinese manufacturers it's that they can easily and quickly copy the look of a reputable brand. Just look through the concepts from this most recent show in Beijing...many of their models are rip-offs of things that were just recently shown in Geneva and New York. That's some quick turn-around.

Regardless, it doesn't take a very sharp eye to see that these two cars are nearly identical right down to the little antenna on top. I can't believe I am even arguing this but the absurdity has me absolutely entranced.

2o6
04-28-2012, 03:40 AM
Sorry that's incorrect. The Verano's styling has been known for OVER a year (January 2011) and as been on sale for about 5 months. The Brilliance in its final form was shown nearly 6 months after the Verano. I had one as a tester 2 months ago and I was not the first journalist to have it by a long-shot.

If there is one thing we know about Chinese manufacturers it's that they can easily and quickly copy the look of a reputable brand. Just look through the concepts from this most recent show in Beijing...many of their models are rip-offs of things that were just recently shown in Geneva and New York. That's some quick turn-around.

Regardless, it doesn't take a very sharp eye to see that these two cars are nearly identical right down to the little antenna on top. I can't believe I am even arguing this but the absurdity has me absolutely entranced.


Do you know how long it takes to engineer and develop a car? Even a cloned one (you can't even clone one overnight). Even still, Brilliance's track record seems to be more than the other manufacturers on the Mainland, they seem to put a lot more effort into their cars.


The Verano's/Excelle's styling came at around the same time as each other, with the Brilliance being first by a few weeks, IIRC.


Here's another picture showing the totally different rear fascia, more pronounced trunk, lower beltline and lower proportions. Lest we not forget the totally different front and rear fascias.

http://www.carnewschina.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/brilliance-530-china-2-458x258.jpg

Here's an early build mock-up of the design.

http://blogavtoguru.ru/images/china2/brilliance-530-sedan-concept-2.jpg

By comparison, here's the Verano's rear view. Much taller, bigger chunkier wheel openings, although the side strake is similar to the Brilliance's, it's not a new design trend in the slightest.

http://www.motortrivia.com/section-new-car-02/208-buick-verano/buick-verano-02.jpg



In comparison, here's an Audi A4, which the Brilliance mirrors it's proportions closer to:

http://image.motortrend.com/f/32302525+w786+ar1/2011-audi-a4-rear-view.jpg
http://img.interia.pl/motoryzacja/nimg/1/j/Brilliance_fotogaleria_5503478.jpg

Although the H530's wheels are smaller (I think some good wheels would fill it out better) it has a similar longer hood with less cab-forward appearance as the A4; the A-piller is pushed farther back. The beltline and hood line are visually lower than the Verano's. Then we take into account Brilliance's family face, and the new rear end they seem to be trying to incorporate into their new models (as seen on the Greater China concept).

They're not "clones" at all.

You can't judge all Chinese automakers by the same standard; they all are doing different things.

MBsam
04-28-2012, 09:24 PM
You're changing your story about timing and then not giving any solid evidence to back it up AND you're comparing photos of the cars taken from very different angles as to obscure the proportional similarities. This car only looks slightly like the A4 directly from the rear but that has nothing to do with proportions. That's just rear-end styling.

Different front a rear facias are he EASIEST thing to change...that's why most face-lifts to current models involve those parts. Facias have nothing to do with proportions and the entire side of the Brilliance (windows, cutlines, the upsweeping crease on the bottom of the door, the door handles, even the antennas) are exact replicas of the Verano.

I'd like to see how this car does in a crash test. The Chinese don't spend nearly as much time as other manufacturers engineering their vehicles and that is evidenced by POOR crash tests and general quality. No way to argue out of that. The styling could have been easily and quickly changed after the Verano was unveiled, that's something that's much easier to do when your cars are not engineered to the same safely standards as European, American, Japanese, and South Korean brands.

I understand you really like Chinese cars and I personally have nothing against them but if a manufacturer is going to clearly and plainly rip off a more established and advanced company I'm (and the rest of the world) are not going to take them seriously.

2o6
04-28-2012, 11:08 PM
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. your conclusion seems to be based upon conjecture and preconcieved notions rather than fact. the proportional difference between the two are vast; theyre nommore similar than the Astra and Mazda 3. Or the current Accent and the Ford Fiesta. Look in the OP of this thread, styli g was broken around the same time as the Verano, an spyshots (on this forum) are from 2010.



Just watch the crash test of the Geely Emgrand EC7; it passed EuroNCAP with four stars.

swizzle
04-29-2012, 12:57 AM
....Just watch the crash test of the Geely Emgrand EC7; it passed EuroNCAP with four stars.

And the gap closes....

MBsam
05-07-2012, 05:21 AM
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. your conclusion seems to be based upon conjecture and preconcieved notions rather than fact. the proportional difference between the two are vast; theyre nommore similar than the Astra and Mazda 3. Or the current Accent and the Ford Fiesta. Look in the OP of this thread, styli g was broken around the same time as the Verano, an spyshots (on this forum) are from 2010.



Just watch the crash test of the Geely Emgrand EC7; it passed EuroNCAP with four stars.

So basically, you didn't read anything I posted previously. The Chinese are quick at their copying. No arguing that. It boggles my mind that you can't see the distinct proportional and stylistic parallels here but looks like you're just seeing what you want to see, and there is no arguing with that. I also think you're confusing proportion with styling. Two very different things.

As for crash tests...you don't even mention one from the same company. The VAST VAST majority of Chinese cars would hardly score a single star in modern American and European crash tests. No coincidence that Geely started succeeding at crash tests after they bought Volvo. Good for them! I want them to build good, unique cars but let's keep some perspective here.

2o6
05-07-2012, 05:34 AM
So basically, you didn't read anything I posted previously. The Chinese are quick at their copying. No arguing that. It boggles my mind that you can't see the distinct proportional and stylistic parallels here but looks like you're just seeing what you want to see, and there is no arguing with that. I also think you're confusing proportion with styling. Two very different things.

As for crash tests...you don't even mention one from the same company. The VAST VAST majority of Chinese cars would hardly score a single star in modern American and European crash tests. No coincidence that Geely started succeeding at crash tests after they bought Volvo. Good for them! I want them to build good, unique cars but let's keep some perspective here.

I don't think they're clones, at all. Proportion and styling go hand-in-hand. Although they have some design similarities, the proportions of the Brilliance are totally different from the Verano.


Besides, the EC7 came out at roughly right before Geely bought Volvo, IIRC.

MBsam
05-07-2012, 05:35 AM
I don't think they're clones, at all.

Well that doesn't make it not so.

2o6
05-07-2012, 05:38 AM
Well that doesn't make it not so.

And unless you've been to China and first hand experienced this car, you can't say that either.

Analyst
05-08-2012, 12:22 AM
As for crash tests...you don't even mention one from the same company.

That's because Euro NCAP never crash tested a Brilliance.

There were, however, tests made according to Euro NCAP standards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qptuCDaX1wc

3 stars frontal/4 stars side

The VAST VAST majority of Chinese cars would hardly score a single star in modern American and European crash tests.

Really? And you make this claim based on what evidence?

Allow me to give you a list of all crash test results for Chinese cars done by foreign NCAP programs (official results only):

2009 - ANCAP: Great Wall V240: 2 stars
2009 - ANCAP: Great Wall SA220: 2 stars
2010 - ANCAP: Great Wall X240 Hover: 4 stars
2010 - Euro NCAP: Jiangling Landwind CV9: 2 stars
2011 - ANCAP: Chery J11: 2 stars
2011 - ANCAP: Chery J1: 3 stars
2011 - ANCAP: Geely MK: 3 stars
2011 - Euro NCAP: Geely Emgrand EC7: 4 stars
2011 - Euro NCAP: MG 6: 4 stars

(ANCAP = Australasian NCAP, uses exactly the same standards as Euro NCAP). These are all of them, not a cherry-picked set.

Here's my evidence, where's yours?

No coincidence that Geely started succeeding at crash tests after they bought Volvo. Good for them! I want them to build good, unique cars but let's keep some perspective here.

The EC7 is actually a car they made before the Volvo acquisition. I'll also suggest you read this article:

http://www.chinacartimes.com/2012/05/05/geelys-safety-dna/

Geely broke the record for the highest score for a Chinese-made vehicle in C-NCAP back in 2011, only to break it again later the same year. 6th best score overall out of some 150 cars. Of course let's not forget the 4 stars in Euro NCAP.

They made a point that they're heavily emphasizing safety. A step in the right direction.

Analyst
05-08-2012, 01:05 AM
Sorry that's incorrect. The Verano's styling has been known for OVER a year (January 2011) and as been on sale for about 5 months. The Brilliance in its final form was shown nearly 6 months after the Verano.

Sorry, that's incorrect.

Pictures of it in its final version, with no camouflage, were seen as early as March 4th, 2011 (http://www.autohome.com.cn/news/201103/178056.html). It was seen from all angles on March 17th, 2011 (http://www.autohome.com.cn/news/201103/181140.html). This is about two months after NAIAS, not six.

But actually, the H530 was first seen in spy shots back in December of 2010 (http://www.autohome.com.cn/news/201012/160782.html). By January 5th, 2011 (http://www.autohome.com.cn/news/201101/165292.html), new and much clearer spy shots revealed all the features you're saying are "copied" from the Buick Verano - prior to the Verano's debut at NAIAS on January 10th, 2011.

Your argument holds no water. Unless the Chinese have a time machine, they couldn't have copied it.