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DoMiNo
01-04-2008, 02:34 AM
Hey all --

Per MOORHOUSE's thread in the PS Contest section, I figured I would pose a similar question re: the Automotive Design Contests for this year.

What would you like to see? What would make the contests more interesting, exciting, and competitive? New Topics? Simultaneous contests? Let's hear your thoughts!

For example, I was considering--in addition to the normal, more long-term contests--a sort of "quick draw contest", wherein a topic would be chosen and there would be a voting showdown between the first two people to post entries. I think this would speed up the contests, would provide quick and constantly-changing alternatives for those not as interested in the topic of the larger contest, and would hopefully build a fun sense of momentum in the Contests section. And perhaps the best part is that, in order to be considered, the entries would have to be quick; good ideas would be crucial.

But that's just one of many possibilities that I think could make the Design Contests more exciting. I know you guys have some ideas, so throw 'em out there!

SV
01-04-2008, 03:13 AM
i like your idea; it would definitely encourage competition...and i could use the quick-sketching practice.

otherwise i can't think of much things to do better...personally i think the voters tend to place way too much emphasis on presentation instead of ideas and the basic competence of the design, but there's not really anything to do about that...

one topic i'd like to see would be a chrysler sebring redesign. not too creative i suppose, but god knows half the people here would love to see that horrid affront to car enthusiasts put out of its misery.

DoMiNo
01-04-2008, 04:06 AM
one topic i'd like to see would be a chrysler sebring redesign. not too creative i suppose, but god knows half the people here would love to see that horrid affront to car enthusiasts put out of its misery.

It was your idea for the Sebring redesign that prompted me to do my Sebring design :D

VexedandGlorious
01-04-2008, 04:18 AM
Simultaneous contests

i vote for this...

"i like idea for a long term contest and a short term contest...
personally i think the voters tend to place way too much emphasis on presentation instead of ideas and the basic competence of the design, but there's not really anything to do about that..."


this bothers me too. people seem to vote off of presentations instead of design....

DoMiNo
01-04-2008, 04:53 AM
I think the quick-draw contests would address that concern, because it will literally be a race to be the first two entries, thus necessitating the need to prioritize concept and design over an elaborate presentation.

Of course if it is that much of a concern we can also stipulate in each main contest what level the participants are able to take their designs (i.e. "This contest pencil only", "markers allowed", etc.). Though I'm personally not in favor of limiting participants' tools of expression, as I believe it's this that really forces people to bring their "A game", so to speak, and raises the general level of effort in the contests, thereby helping others improve.

Keep the suggestions coming!

PRODIGY
01-04-2008, 11:42 AM
Like the ideas so far guys.

I too have noticed that votes tend to be given for presentation. I've probably been guilty of voting like that myself. In the latest competition I tried to avoid that, I mean Quattros entry wasn't the best drawn but I could see his idea was a good one and I could also see he put a lot of effort into it.

The 'Quick draw' Contest sounds great. However I have one concern, whoever chooses the subject for the quick draw may have the advantage... They could already have drawn their proposal before they open the contest. How would we avoid this? I suppose if an outside figure were to decide on the contest for us maybe?

DoMiNo
01-04-2008, 03:40 PM
Good point.

PRODIGY
01-04-2008, 04:38 PM
Perhaps if one of the admins who don't mind not participating could come up with the ideas for the quick draw. I know Ascariss has talent with photoshopping, but I don't recall Andre, Santeno, or Clinton ever particapating in an auto design contest... but then i am relatively new to this site so i could be completely wrong!

It's a good idea though, and i've love to get involved in a quick draw contest... as long as their was fair play and no-one getting head start.

gotrice
01-06-2008, 05:50 AM
I have yet to participate in one of the contests here, but am eager to try sometime soon.. so the 'quick-draw' contest idea sounds great to me! It seems like whenever I visit the contest thread, it is either at the very end of submissions, during or after voting. So having shorter contests more often might bring in those of us who tend to visit CSS.. ahem.. less consistently. :)

My only suggestion would be to limit the contest to the first three submissions instead of two.. for more variety and opportunity to see three possible solutions to the design dilemma at hand, not just two.

DoMiNo
01-06-2008, 06:05 AM
I'm not against expanding the number of entries; my main concern is the timing. If we got two entries very quickly but had to wait days for someone to enter a third then it would kind of negate the point of having a "quick" draw contest in the first place.

Conversely, if three or four people were to get in entries before a mod had the chance to close the contest, I see no reason why those couldn't be considered.

Really, though,I think limiting it to just two will move it along much quicker.

gotrice
01-06-2008, 06:19 AM
Really, though,I think limiting it to just two will move it along much quicker.

Makes sense to me.

AXIS
01-06-2008, 07:21 PM
I like the idea of having simultaneous contests, it would be nice if both the winner and runner up were both asked to choose topics for the next contest, so while voting is going on for one contest we can have another contest up and running.

DoMiNo
01-06-2008, 07:30 PM
My biggest issue with simultaneous "big" contests is that, even if they were staggered, the entries for each would basically be cut in half.

VexedandGlorious
01-06-2008, 11:12 PM
I'm not against expanding the number of entries; my main concern is the timing. If we got two entries very quickly but had to wait days for someone to enter a third then it would kind of negate the point of having a "quick" draw contest in the first place.

Conversely, if three or four people were to get in entries before a mod had the chance to close the contest, I see no reason why those couldn't be considered.

Really, though,I think limiting it to just two will move it along much quicker.

to tell you the truth the quick draw isn't too fair to me, because i have to go to another house to scan my work then come here to post it, and I'm only at the second house on some weekends...I mean does it have to be that fast...

PRODIGY
01-07-2008, 04:36 PM
to tell you the truth the quick draw isn't too fair to me, because i have to go to another house to scan my work then come here to post it, and I'm only at the second house on some weekends...I mean does it have to be that fast...
If it wasn't 'that fast' then it wouldn't be a 'quick draw' lol. Admittedly, it isn't fair for people like yourselves that haven't got a scanner, but couldn't you do what or2007 does and take a pic with a camera or camera phone and upload your pic that way?

DoMiNo
01-07-2008, 05:02 PM
Agreed. The intent is not to exclude possible participants, by any means, but rather to keep the contests moving along as quickly as possible. Limiting the amount of participants (and consequently the amount of time) stands as really the only logical option in that respect.

It sometimes seems, for instance, that in our contests the first couple of entries come very quickly, while the remainder are posted much closer to the closing deadline. I think the sense of urgency will make this more exciting.

And I completely understand the concern that you may not be able to participate in every contest, but then again that's kind of the point. It all comes down to whoever is available, and whoever is inspired at that given moment; frankly I think it will make participation more diverse.

Mil
01-08-2008, 08:08 PM
Well, I haven't been entering much lately, as I've been quite busy. Or I'd like is a quick type of competition, I don't have enough time to develop a whole design. I just want to sit down draw a few ideas, and maybe some sketches with a little more detail.
I think we can reach this by setting certain equipment that can be used. ie. Only a pencil for one competition, or a pen for another. etc.

I'm not in for long competitions with everything fully rendered; competitions for only a page of design ideas (etc.) would be much better, and would make it easier for people to meet the deadline.

swizzle
07-20-2008, 01:57 PM
I would like the 10 points that we can award to be able to be divided up among as few or as many entries as we desire. If I see an entry that deserves all 10 points, I should be able to do that. If there are 5 so-so entries I should be able to give 2 points each. This would give the individual designers a better feel for how their designs are being received.

Nath
07-20-2008, 03:23 PM
Or rate every single entry between one and ten points on (for example) innovation, presentation and feasability or something.

DoMiNo
07-20-2008, 04:32 PM
The scoring system was implemented with the intention of keeping the contests as competitive as possible. Allowing one entry to get the entire ten points means said entry could run away with the contest and other entries may not have a chance. I know, the best design should still theoretically win in this case, but for the sake of participation (which, in this past contest, was rather high) I think the current system of point distribution is better.

Rating each design on a few criteria is not a bad idea, however, as that (1) gives everyone points regardless and (2) addresses swizzle's point about designers getting a better idea of how their designs are being received in different respects. However, rating each individual entry in a contest with a dozen entries (and I realize the number's not always that high, though it's sometimes higher) could take a really long time. Plus, if there is a limit to the possible points awarded ( 3 criteria X 10 pts. each = a possible 30 points) there is much more room for a tie between several entries.

The system we have is fair enough to encourage broad participation, and it is easy enough so that it doesn't discourage people from voting. That is the balance we need to strike for these contests to be successful.

I appreciate the feedback and would be willing to explore different scoring mechanisms in future contests.

swizzle
07-20-2008, 11:56 PM
The scoring system was implemented with the intention of keeping the contests as competitive as possible. Allowing one entry to get the entire ten points means said entry could run away with the contest and other entries may not have a chance.

No one said competition was fair or pretty and I am not intending to disrespect the rules that the moderators have set in place. The forced "you must pick 4" is more about protecting people's feelings in my opinion because is forces an unnatural constraint. The nature of true competition is that it is cut throat. If someone hits a home run they deserve to spank the competition.

I don't have the talent to compete, but if I did have the talent, I would want to win big or lose big. Perhaps I'm old and crusty enough to demand honesty even if it ain't pretty. If I win big, I can assess my design and try to figure out the essence of what I did to be successful. If I lose big, I can see how I missed the target. If I'm the winner in a "competition" where there is a forced voting constraint I have no measure of how much better I was than the runner up.

I want to add parenthetically that the Porsche competition--for me--ironically had 3-4 good designs that resonated with me that I would have voted for anyway. However, I would have been peeved to have seen one amazing design and the rest be awkward and know that the most I could award to one design was 7 points.

Just thinking out loud and NOT whining.

DoMiNo
07-21-2008, 05:17 AM
Protecting people's feelings is one way of putting it. Reining in egos is another. Or simply trying in some way to level the playing field when competitors are of such vastly differing abilities. In any event, I realize that in the big, bad real world competition is unrestrained and cutthroat, but we're here to have fun and to learn. I personally think there is plenty of room for honesty in this system (and accountability, when people take the time to explain their votes), and frankly I think that this so-called "forced constraint" has done nothing to hinder the improvement of the entrants. Every contest the entries seem to get better and better; I don't think changing the voting system will force people to try any harder than they clearly already are, and I don't think that a higher margin of victory or defeat will force people to analyze the respective successes or failures in their designs more than they already do.

If, to a certain competitor, winning means winning by "x" amount of points, then they're really missing the purpose of the exercise to begin with, IMO.

PRODIGY
07-21-2008, 09:25 AM
In response to this discussion, may I offer my 2pence (2cents for you 2 DoM and Swizzle)

The current 10 points among 4 entrants is a fair method. This time however there were about 6 entries that I wanted to give points to and I felt bad for leaving out the 2 that I did. But I guess that it encourages you to really think and evaluate each entry.

One day I would hope to win a contest. I don't think that day will come. I think i've got better, but i'm still no where near competitive. I still think that too much emphasis is placed on presentation, and I hope that DoMiNo's idea of a quick draw contest eventually happens.

swizzle
07-21-2008, 02:59 PM
Protecting people's feelings is one way of putting it. Reining in egos is another. Or simply trying in some way to level the playing field when competitors are of such vastly differing abilities.

Ding, dong, dingo!

To be honest I IGNORE the appearance of the entry (i.e. sketches to full-color renderings I see equally) because I am focusing entirely on the "feel" of the design. I assumed that the vastly different abilities had to be accounted for by focusing instead on the intent of the artist. What vision did the person bring? I do not focus on how well it was brought. The first look at the Audi TT was supposedly drawn on a paper napkin. It was still brilliant.

DoMiNo
07-21-2008, 04:59 PM
Theoretically that should be the way everyone votes.

swizzle
07-21-2008, 05:59 PM
If anything, my personal bias is in favor of sketches because they feel more human, personal, and immediate. Photoshops can in fact be impressive, but they seem sterile, impersonal, and divorced from reality. Therefore, I endeavor not to be anti-Photoshop. My bias is probably that of someone who grew into computers as opposed to growing up with them.

AXIS
05-22-2009, 07:36 PM
I'd like to bounce off a couple of ideas I have in mind for the contests and would love to hear how you guys feel about them before implementing any changes.

Design Contests:

I think it will be a huge benefit to everyone participating if there were a stickied thread in the general design forum for posting your contest development sketches. Just to get some general feedback before submitting your final entry. With the contests running for 10 days, we could utilize a couple of days for concepts & ideation and the rest for final presentation and voting. (as always, extensions will be granted on a case by case basis)

Design Battles:

So instead of two designers randomly challenging each other, what if the participants were chosen from the #2 & #3 runners up from the general design contest. The battles would take place during the voting period of the regular contests just to keep a steady flow of action in here.

Leaderboard:

There's already one for the design battles how about having another for the general contests.
Whoever accrues the most points by the end of the year will essentially be the CSS Design Champion!

Thats all I can think of for now but its all up to you guys, so let me know what you think and please don't hesitate to offer up your own suggestions if you have any.

Rob
05-23-2009, 08:46 AM
I think the contest development sketches thread is a fantastic idea. I'd be great to get some crit before submitting your final entry. The second and third ideas, I'm not so sure about.

swizzle
05-23-2009, 03:05 PM
I like all three proposals.

LamboMan
05-23-2009, 03:56 PM
I like the first and third ideas and hope that they are implemented asap.
I am not completely against it but i don't like the second idea, my reason being that if it's implemented only a few people will be battling all the time. It's not like all of us get a chance to be #2 and #3. Some of us get few votes due to lack of skill or talent or whatever and won't be able to reach such positions anytime soon.

I have one little suggestion to offer, which can be seen in my quote below. I had said this earlier in the 'Design Battleground - Discussion thread' made by Dom.

Leave it as it is.
But Dom there is one thing you could do to make things a bit clearer. Have everyone who wishes to be challenged and take part PM you and then you can make a list of the people who are willing to participate and post it on the first page of the battle thread, so that we all know who wants to battle and then the winner/challenger can easily choose from that list. Also, the challenger will get to know who's waiting to be challenged.

More importantly it will also help in making sure that everyone who wants to take part eventually does get challenged and not only a few people all the time. Of course i am not pointing towards anything thats happening now but something that could happen in the future. That way everyone who wants to take part gets a chance.

DoMiNo
05-23-2009, 04:58 PM
1. A design contest thread for submitting works in progress is fine, if you feel like showing your hand early and letting competitors know the direction you're taking. You lose the element of surprise ;)

2. There are no guarantees #2 and #3 will always be available for the design battles, plus as LamboMan suggests you risk a very small group of frequent participants.

3. Leaderboard sounds ok; we had one a while back, not sure when we stopped keeping track.

AXIS
11-19-2009, 01:41 AM
With contest participation at an all time low, how would you guys feel about putting the main contests on hold and focusing on the design battles for now, thoughts?

dsgnr
11-19-2009, 11:31 PM
You mean the shoot outs? Yeah, count me in.

Waleed
07-06-2010, 05:33 PM
I will participate in the design contests

AXIS
07-06-2010, 07:17 PM
I will participate in the design contests

Welcome Back! look forward to seeing your work.

AXIS
10-16-2010, 01:50 AM
On a related note, I've been thinking for a while now that maybe we should adopt a voting scheme similar to that in the Ps Contests; i.e. rank each design on a scale from 1 to 5 instead of divvying up a set allotment of points. Thoughts?

Are there any objections or concerns about changing the contest voting rules? Perhaps we should try it out next contest to see how well it goes. Also if anyone has any ideas or suggestions on how we can increase participation or just general motivation for the design section do share.

hakkinen
10-25-2010, 09:48 AM
No, I agree with DoMiNo, I think it would be better that way.

jappelflapje
10-25-2010, 12:05 PM
No, I agree with DoMiNo, I think it would be better that way.

I agree too..

ElementW
10-25-2010, 06:34 PM
Same here. Give it the green light.

AXIS
10-26-2010, 02:05 AM
Same here. Give it the green light.

The "green light” (http://www.carspyshots.net/showthread.php?t=19325) has been given, make sure you check out the amended contest Rules and Regulations (http://www.carspyshots.net/showthread.php?t=19325). New voting goes into effect starting next contest.

Nath
01-09-2011, 02:36 PM
Hello all.
I think the 1 - 5 voting is far more simple for the voter, which is a god thing to encourage people to vote.
I do think there is one problem though, depending on how many of the entrants themselves vote can change the outcome.

I think this could be solve in one of two ways
either;

1) you can vote for yourself
or
2) an average is taken (and maybe multiplied by 10 to take out the decimal)

eg:

contestant 1 - 29 points out of 7 votes
contestant 2 - 27 points out of 6 votes

c1 finals with 41
c2 finals with 45

SV
01-10-2011, 12:12 AM
Hello all.
I think the 1 - 5 voting is far more simple for the voter, which is a god thing to encourage people to vote.
I do think there is one problem though, depending on how many of the entrants themselves vote can change the outcome.

I think this could be solve in one of two ways
either;

1) you can vote for yourself
or
2) an average is taken (and maybe multiplied by 10 to take out the decimal)

eg:

contestant 1 - 29 points out of 7 votes
contestant 2 - 27 points out of 6 votes

c1 finals with 41
c2 finals with 45

I was thinking of bringing this up as well...I'd have done better in the Designer's Choice contest if I hadn't voted for this reason, though I will say I think the new voting system is an improvement.